Aero isn't everything...

mgraffeo

 At least so says Dr. Inigo San Milan, who worked with Garmin Transitions...

 

http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/ar...hing-31165

 

Not quite sure what the takeaway would be for those of us without access to this kind of testing, but interesting nonetheless...

Paul Hough

Hmm. I read recently about a mobile wind tunnel trailer that would be showing up a major races around the country (Aerofit). You can book with the company in advance -- the full service fit costs $750, takes 90-180 minutes including 40 mins of wind tunnel time. After reading Dr Milan's article I think I'll pass on that opportunity.

morpheus

Mike, that was a pretty good read. I'm not one to search for the perfect position, perfect frame, perfect wheel, perfect mechanics, etc. I tweak, alot, every year. Some years it seems to work and some years not so much. I tend to agree with the main point of the article. I feel that my aero position is good, fairly aggressive. But, I know, because I've tried, that I can get lower and more narrow. It's fast(er?) but I know that I can't hold it very long. I'm lucky that I can tuck as much as I do. Having said that, I know that I'll get more out learning how to train and race with power effectively than trying to get a 'perfect' aero position.



He did have some interesting bullets on having a relaxed upper body and stretching out long. And he mentioned that the aero helmet might be the biggest help.



Maybe one day, I can create a Pain Cave that will have a massive homemade wind tunnel in it while I'm maximizing watt output and using my physiological real time lab to make sure I stay right at LT, while catching Top Ten on SportsCenter. That's when I'll worry about getting a better position.

kurshing

I think a basic take away would be that, as you get your fit dialed in, monitor power output. If power really starts to suffer, you have probably reached your "aero peak". So, I guess it is further evidence to support the notion that there IS a balance between power and position.

Interesting article.

Norton

It is a balancing act. In the end, how can I go faster over my event distance? On my brevet bike I often adopt a "faux" aero position, forearms on the handlebar tops, hands draped over my rando box. I can't sustainably create as many watts but I'm much faster than up on the hoods or even down in the drops. I'll often unknowingly roll off the front of a pace line; I'm both faster and creating less of a wind shadow for those behind me.

cgres123

Good stuff Mike, looks like the helmet is the way to go and perhaps stretch yourself out a bit.

John Withrow

When I was reading this, one paragraph jumped out at me...

"Extension angle is crucial to both aero and metabolic performance. Dr. San Millán says there is a reason the UCI made the Praying Mantis position illegal — it’s very fast. For those racing non-UCI regulated time trials or triathlons, it’s the only position to use."

I've never actually heard of anyone on EN endorsing the Praying Mantis position and I've never seen it in anybody's pictures. I also don't think I've ever seen anyone at a regular triathlon using this position... So what gives? If it is "the only position to use" because it is "very fast", why doesn't anybody use it?

morpheus

Hell, I'll try it

in an oly next year. I'll have to do some homework and see how the cockpit is adjusted.

not sure about 5-6 hours with hands elevated, tho.

jburbatt

I'm guessing the praying mantis position is so aero because it channels the air past your body/chest effectively. But comfort and handling ability over the course of a HIM or IM I would question...

Ha, and I'm sure it's not used in triathlon because - if you haven't noticed - 98% of triathletes like the same ol' thing that has always been done, even if something new "works."

mancona

Posted By Jennifer Burbatt on 21 Oct 2011 07:47 AM

I'm guessing the praying mantis position is so aero because it channels the air past your body/chest effectively. But comfort and handling ability over the course of a HIM or IM I would question...

Bingo ... I've tried it.  For an hour TT and then sitting on my butt afterwards it's fine, but I wasn't comfortable enough to even consider it for an 70.3 or IM.

 

TJ rides this position for IM but has made his own "elbow pads" which I am assuming make it much more comfortable for a longer ride.

bpick.reno

Here's pics of TJ's setup. http://www.bouldertriathlon.com/2011/06/17/pro-bike-tj-tollaksons-zipp-2001/

I swear I used to wear those elbow "cups" to protect something else...

jburbatt

Here's a pic of him riding that contraption...very interesting.

http://www.tririg.com/galleries.php?id=1054_Kona_Retrospective&num=27&super=off

tuckerm

I'm fairly certain that no one rides this way because the rider would get ridiculed by his fellow triathletes. Let's be honest he looks like a shiny dick with ears. That doesn't mean it isn't ridiculously fast though. It more shows that we are a bunch of folks who value style over substance.
As for the article itself I don't think it broke new ground. I think we all knew there was a tradeoff between aero and power. It's just where is that line. Most of us will never know.

cgres123

@ Tucker , but really T ,what do ya think ?

mgraffeo

Tucker, I'd argue that the article is saying something fundamentally different than "there's a tradeoff between aero and power." That's well established, from a biomechanical efficiency perspective (ie. closed hip angle means muscles pushing off in a more lengthened state). However, the metabolic piece of it hasn't been discussed in other settings I've seen. Previously, the advice always given here and in other forums has been "yeah, there's a tradeoff, but always take more aero, because you'll always be faster even if you give up a few watts." In this article, it cites specific examples where that's clearly not true. That, to me, was the more interesting part.

Again, not sure what to do with it, but I do find it thought-provoking. As to TJ, if I could ride as strong as he does, I'd be happy to look like a "shiny dick with ears".

tuckerm

I don't know Mike, it just seems that his metabolic cost is just a way of saying whether you can hold that aero position for the duration of the event. We all know there is diminishing returns as we get more aero in respect to power, but how is this applicable to us? Seems to me we would need lots of time in a wind tunnel, or at the very least a wind tunnel trip with a Retul fitting where they can record a few different positions for you. This way you would have your watts saved for each position and can do your own testing to see where your power comes in.

mgraffeo

I actually don't think that it's totally unactionable for 'the rest of us'. For example, any of us have access to estimates of CdA by doing a Chung test protocol. One could get a pretty good bike fit, then vary the height of the aerobats a bit, and compare CdA to average HR across certain laps (as a fairly complex example).

Even better would be to spend a bit more than some are spending on a Joule or a Garmin 800, and buy an iBike Aero. Paired with the wireless PT, you get real time CdA measurements, which would allow for a combination of Power, CdA, HR, and RPE to really drill down to your optimal position.

Just some thoughts bouncing around in my head.

tuckerm

You're right, it isn't impossible for us to do it. I meant more along the lines of sitting in the tunnel constantly getting our fingers pricked while changing positions. Very expensive.

Chris G

 Just off the top of my head:

-no one uses the praying mantis position for more than comfort reasons.  I have never heard anyone else ever make a claim that it is faster for everyone or even faster than other positions generally.

-It totally discounts the idea of adaptation.  Just because a position reduces the amount of watts you are able to put out for those few minutes you test the position in the tunnel is not to say that 4 weeks of riding in it later than you will not be able to hold just as many watts.

-Decreasing your need for oxygen by using a metabolic training device sounds like total nonsense.  That would for sure seem to be a ground breaking claim.

-TJ is a wing nut.  He may be fast. He may have some interesting ideas.  He is not fast enough to justify any sort or blind emulation of the stuff that he does.

-the positions of most AG athletes are so far being so aero that the have a metabolic detriment is extremely unlikely.  This is often only the case if your gut gets in the way.  In that instance, lose the gut and it is amazing not only how much lower you will be able to ride but how much faster in general you will be.  For people without the gut issue [and even with a good size gut you should be able to acheive a very aero position that has zero metabolic detriment] the position is often a limiter or uncomfortable because they do stuff like drop the front end without changing anything else which messes up the angles.  If the angles are correct you really can't move any of the contact points without moving the other contact points.

-and this goes with the above point but most fitters generally suck at their jobs yet almost everyone is convinced that "their guy" [meant as gender nuetral term] is really good.  Further, even fitters that are good at what they do are often severely handicapped by their cleints who go get fit or buy a new bike with all sorts of preconceived notions about what they want/need to the tune of "I need comfort over speed", "I am not that flexible", "I race long distance", "I have back issues", "I read this stupid article..." 

-for sure get an aero helmet, no reason not to wear one.  If it is so hot that it actually makes a difference chances are that you would have been walking it in no matter what and this way you will a. look cool in the pictures and b. have a ready made excuse for said walking...