Hacking Coach P's 5th OutSeason
** Please note, this is Coach P talking about my fifth outseason. The OS plans are awesome and work and they'll help you crush it. This is an exercise in me "hacking" my way to a better plan for me based on my experience, an exercise I think you can all undertake once you have your own set of data (ideally greater than 2 seasons).**
In my fifth outseason, I am trying to work things to make them better for me. I have noticed that of the twenty week outseason, I can make it through 14 weeks but then my mental capacity fades. Pretty much simultaneous with seeing any gains. I am not sure which happens first, and it hasn't been an issue as I get pretty strong for each year. But…
But I am entering my 10th season of triathlon, and I am looking to keep the ball rolling. My goals for 2012 are pretty focused: I want to get my FTP north of 330 (would love a 10% gain) and my body composition down south of 185 regular / 180 race day (would love 175 on race day or better).
I am slowly working my way around to getting into alignment with the diet principles of our Core Diet partner, with a goal of being on target by November. But my FTP goal is a tough one. I have been at 325 for three years, and while I have gotten more aero and improved the trailing edge of that power (over 2, 3, and 4 hours) I am not raising the roof of my "house" and I think that's the next step.
So here's what I am thinking:
- Start the OS in November, as I do have Boston in April and this gives me time to do some longer runs after the OS
- Modify the OS to do FTP until I don't see FTP gains and more, then move over to do VO2.
- Modify my OS week as:
- Monday = (AM) FTP Bike from Tuesday
- Tuesday = (NOON) Interval Run
- Wednesday = (PM) FTP Bike from Thursday
- Thursday = OFF / Yoga / Core / Flex
- Friday = (AM) FTP Bike from Saturday
- Saturday = (LATE AM) Intervals followed by aerobic, easy run (btw 60 and 90 minutes)
- Sunday = OFF / Yoga / Core / Flex
I am trying to figure out the "hacked" week because it could allow for more recovery between sessions (36 hours, not just 24). It would also give me a good night's sleep on four nights instead of two (on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Sunday). Thursday
Measuring Gains
The plan for the bike is to so the workouts as listed, but begin to incorporate a 20 minute all out interval as part of that Saturday ride as a benchmarking workout. I will probably get to this by week 4 of the OS and can then repeat pretty consistently. I can use this workout as a guide / measuring stick to see if I am making progress. Flat or similar results over three weeks would mean, I guess, moving to the VO2 phase.
The Run
As of right now I will stick with the run OS as listed, even though I am considering changing the bike, as the run stuff seems to work well for me (and I need to control part of my season!). Plus with boston looming the runs will need to get longer so I don't want to push my luck too much.
Body Comp Goals
In addition to the nutrition focus, I might also be able to use the Thursday / Sunday "off" days as swing days to do some swimming. I say swimming as it would be activity that wouldn't hurt my other workouts and would help me burn some calories. With 36 hours between workouts, I am not as scared of having something on these days if I want.
Okay folks, have at me. Am I crazy? Wringing juice from a stone? You've helped me so many times before….thanks!!!
Comments
Patrick- I hear your goals and the one that I think is A#1 is move the roof/line on FTP. Its fundamental if you want to get faster/endurance you need to move up the FTP.
With that in mind; I trust you know the right combo of bike/interval/temp etc. work...so no thoughts there...
I would only do one interval run and keep a longer Sunday run in the mix (this would/could include tempo pace running)...this does alot of good for body comp...for me it is a mental and physical necessity....otherwise I think your mix of rest and work is good.
Try hacking over a 10-14day week vs 7day.
You'll have more breathing room for recovery or
High quality sessions.
Make the weight drop a top priority.
I think this approach would be very high yield for u.
Gh
I say this knowing that this isn't a new idea to any of the vets in the area, but, I thought I'd throw it out there anyways.
Good Luck!
How exactly are you working this piece:
" while I have gotten more aero and improved the trailing edge of that power (over 2, 3, and 4 hours)".
Is that simply JRA at 80% to 85% on the longer rides, moving up FT for the whole power curve, or do you have specific plan for moving up the trailing edge?
Coach P,
Just a few other thoughts:
1) I like the idea of more VO2, looking at perhaps two VO2 blocks in 20 weeks.
2) Your breakdown of the week does allow for more recovery as suggested look at the 10-14 day cycle.
3) Do you need a transition week in the OS to help get you through the 20 weeks? This will cause some scheduling issues as there are only four weeks after the OS to Boston. Maybe an 18 week OS with 1 week transition in the middle and 1 week at the end, then 4 weeks to Boston.
4) Measuring gains - I'm not sure I have a better suggestion but how does fatigue play in to this weekly 20 minute all out effort as you move through the OS.
From your previous years data where do you see the FTP plateau? I ask because if this plateau was in week 5-6 it will be already week 7-8 by the time you switch over to VO2. Do you need to consider switching over to VO2 after a specific number of weeks, say 4-6 based on previoius years data. Maybe use last years FTP as a target, but this would require an additional test in weeks 4-6. I don't have the advanced plan loaded up but this may making a 2X15 in to a test.
The first four comments are focused on the question your asked #5 is an option to consider if you want to focus on the bike in the OS.
5) Realizing that you want to do Boston I'll be the guy to ask. What is your A race for next year and is Boston getting in the way of this? Consider a 1/2 mary as per OS guidance and focus on the bike and a 20 week block.
Gordon
Coupla points:
- Rich and I had been talking about single sport focus blocks during the OS. Any room for that in your year? Or that thinking to permeate your plan? I haven't quite gelled my thinking on that (I'll post early in 2012), but it could be a good advanced tweak to leverage a 20 week OS footprint, and work with the Northern Hemisphere weather and seasons (instead of against them).
- LOVE the rest days. I think these are going to be the biggest value added part of your shuffling of days. I can't do these because I just don't have the discipline, despite knowing that these work (in fact, I would attribute my IM PB to you having prescibed them in my AZ Build).
Thanks for putting this out there.
Your advice to me was about the same as your plan is for you including swimming, just because " I want too". OS swimming is low on the TSS scale and you maintain than feel for the water. It will not make you faster but you don't start from ground zero after 20 weeks of OS either.
A little core / flex / yoga and weight training thing is a good way to round off your training. It builds some strength and the endurance muscles/ fast/slow twitch fibers all will benefit with it.
Sounds like a plan to me. I'm giving it a shot as you suggested in my post and I'm going to be in my 2nd out season following my Iron Distance race this weekend.
Why wait ? If if don't kill you it will make you stronger .... may be ..
D
Now of course I am not sure how this will reflect on downstream workouts, and maybe is best for a single sport focus block like Dave mentioned. Depending on my season next year I'm thinking of trying this maybe July-August to see where I can get my FTP to.
This is something I've been looking at as well for several weeks. I’ve decided to continue with the FTP focused training until I see a plateau in the data. In addition to potentially lengthening the FTP focus, I will perform as many QUALITY intervals as possible. I will be following the weekly zone structure; however, I will perform as many intervals as possible until I’m unable to maintain that zone. So, if I see a 7-10% drop in my last interval below the minimum for that zone I will start my cool down. My goal is to maintain my FTP for a total of 60 minutes cumulatively in a given workout. Just my 2 cents.
Like Tom, I was wondering whether raising the right side of the mean maximal power curve is best achieved by APB rides, or specific intervals (say, 40 mins @ 85%, some easy, and repeat as discussed in the post about TJ's bike split at Placid)?
I like the APB rides because I like going (relatively fast), so after a short wu, I just drill it @ around 90% (Coggan and Allan so-called sweet spot) until I slow down, then drink and repeat.
In terms of looking to achieve a FTP breakthrough, Tucker points to the usual advice that really just boils down to sitting around your FTP for longer.
The EN OS framework is important to use regarding the FTP limiter of your VO2 max — a point you acknowledge.
I am not sure about your poposed method of using testing to determine when to switch to VO2 max sets — and what about the switch back to FTP? The reason I am questioning the use of testing to tell you when to switch is that there are lots of potential reasons for under-performance on any particular test — and the danger is that you may draw the wrong conclusion from a test result.
In any case, after the FTP gains start to diminish, why not implement VO2 max intervals together with continuing FTP work? Billat's running program incorporates both types of intervals whcih suggests there are training benefits from doing both flavours of work. Also, EN programs incorporate both styles at various places.
Sorry for the length of this but it's interesting and important that I make myself clear.
So in short, I like the more rest between sessions. I wonder how best to raise the right? And query whether a test should determine when to switch intensity, given you appear to have set the period at 14 weeks. Oh, and BTW, myself I wondered about whether a 1 or 2 week easier block after 12 or 14 weeks might allow some more OS build?
Cheers
Peter
The 120% prescription is based on averages whereas a test will give you your best power target.
Peter
Two thoughts:
1. Maybe the whole FTP/VO2 max split on the bike isn't the way to go. Maybe, you do three bikes each week. One is always the "saturday" (Friday on your schedule) ride which starts with an FTP "mini-test" and follows with 80-90% stuff depending on the length of the ride available. Then, the other two are either one FTP and one VO2 session (for those "FTP Weeks)", or two VO2 sessions (for those VO2 weeks). Meaning, always be doing SOME VO2 work, just as one would ALWAYS be doing some strides each week when running.
2. I'm worried when I see you writing "now i can get 4 nights instead of two nights of good sleep". Why aren;t you getting SEVEN nights of good sleep already. Quality sleep is as improtnat as lean body composition, diet, and good hydration. What do you need to change to get a better chance at good sleep every night? Or am I mis-reading those lines?
I like Al's suggestion at #1 (I also like #2, but that's not new news there
What about reversing the OS setup to VO2 focus, FTP focus, VO2 focus? Or breaking it down into 4 alternating sessions instead of 3?
I'd guess that you'd benefit from this type of approach, given how close you're starting to get to your absolute cycling potential at 330 watts (probably never going to hit 380 as a multisport athlete!). A sort of constant nudging up of the whole power curve. The other item that I firmly believe in after this summer is the occasional neuromuscular intervals (ie. 10-30s sprint intervals). Huge potential for better brain-muscle connection, which for me paid big dividends in my pedaling mechanics.
I like the idea of moving to more consistent 36 hour breaks, but am a bit concerned that you never get a 48 in there. Only you know your recovery, though, so I leave that in your court.
I have the same question as the crew: Why don't we do V02 and FTP together -- like running? I, too, have experienced the V02 crash of ftp. Maybe think about V02 in terms of a track workout full of 400s and 800s?
Other thought: Are you doing the OS in aero? I keep seeing videos of the pros in their pain caves and there is lots of work in aero position. Why are they doing that? Should we be doing that?
@Gordon, my A race is IM Mont Tremblant in August, Boston will be fine for me. I am looking at an earlier half, but that's cool too. I typically hit my FTP plateau with my week 14 test….nothing happens after that. I am thinking of a 1 week break here. Currently thinking of 14 weeks FTP, a 1 week Break and 6 weeks VO2...
@Dave, I am curious about the single sport block, but with only 2 runs per week I don't think that's holding me back per se….if I could lose 20 lbs…
@Tucker, yes, I think an extended FTP window will give me more time to do "fun" stuff as you suggest…my legs hurt already…
@Jamison, that's crazy beefy. I think it takes us 3-4 weeks to get up to 60' of FTP in a week's worth of training…and that's across three sessions! I am curious to hear how much rest you need between those workouts!
@Al, the sleep is just the kids.
@Jennifer, I am at 325 by Week 8 usually..and the VO2 work gives me hope…and I see a boost…but then that's it. So Week 14 is the end of my gains.
@Mike, I like the standard week you have outlined…but I think that might be something better suited to a minimalist approach to my In Season training. OR, perhaps, I will do the focused FTP approach…and then transition to the VO2 work or a modified VO2 week as you have outlined to avoid letting Phase II just chew me up and spit me out (with gains, but thoroughly spent).
The VO2 stuff you guys mention is interesting to me, especially what @Al T and @Mike Graffeo seize re VO2 for the whole OS. My power profile is decidedly FTP oriented…I can barely ever do 120% FTP for the 2.5' intervals…usually I do 1' or 1.5' versions. I think that type of hard work will help me…now you have the wheels really spinning.
Some of you asked about filling in the Power Profile piece of my fitness. I think just having been at 325 for years, I have been able to do "more" work in that space. In addition, this year, between Placid and Kona, I did more longer interval work on my long rides b/c I couldn't hold FTP stuff and still train. I was doing 45' intervals at 75 to 80% FTP, with some flavor of rest (5' - 15') and repeating that for a few hours…this would give me 3-4 hours faster than my expected IM effort. It was surprisingly hard yet achievable…big thanks to Chris Whyte for suggesting that focus, my 5:01 bike split thanks him!
Other than that I think you should A. Join the Cheesecake of the month club, B. Do little to no running or riding from now until April 1, and C. [and this part is the most important] sign up for the F1 race at American Zofingen.
On a slightly more serious note, for you, the low hanging fruit is all gone. Any gains you make in FTP are going to be pretty small at this point. Think you would be better off really concentrating on losing the pounds. Oh and am I remembering wrong that you were pushing well more than 330 at the start of the season last year?
One other question I have is: Are there benefits to doing intervals above Vo2 max? I've read that many roadies hit these on occasion, but I don't quite know if there is a proven reason for this. I imagine there is and that it's not necessarily directly related to triathlon, but since you've hit the plateau over the past few years, I wonder if something outside the typical tri world will break the plateau thus enabling you to re-enter the FTP training zones at a different place.[Just trying to think outside the box here]
My thoughts:
I think Al, Beth and Jennifer may be on to something -- Most competitive runners and running coaches train all energy "systems" simultaneously which would mean doing VO2 Max and FTP workouts in the same week vs completely separate phases or block.
I experimented with this some this year in my cycling as I had a weekly group ride (4-5 guys) called the "Pain train" that consisted of about a 4.2 mile hilly loop where each person took a "lap" and basically buried himself trying to complete it faster than the week before and try to crush/drop the people hanging on for dear life. The rest of the workout was 85-90% work trying to hang on to the group. This workout though brings me to my other thoughts about how we define VO2 max power and how long to make the intervals.
In running, Pete Pfinzinger, Jack Daniels and other write that VO2 max pace is something that can be sustained for about 8 minutes by well trained runners
During this group ride my lap would typically take anywhere from 10:15 --10:30, a little longer than 8 minutes but this was a no holds barred ride as hard as you can for 10 minutes until you almost throw up at the end of the lap. Powerwise, I would be anywhere from 110% to 118 % (on a good day!) of my FTP for my 4.2 mile loop.
Did this week in week out from about May on and saw big gains in FTP quickly. Although over the season once I got back to near my previous FTP best, improvement did slow.
While this is an N=1 and I fully admit that there may be no way to do this workout with out the "group ride adrenaline whip" It worked this season for me.
Take away points and things I"m thinking about for next year --
1. VO2 workout throughout the offseason AND race season?
2 Maybe adjust the VO2 power to facilitate LONGER VO2 intervals -- If this requires an 8 min all out, balls to the wall test, throw up afterwards to determine that number, Maybe that is more accurate and could be replicated in training via intervals vs using a blanket 120% FTP?
+1 on what Jamison said about training aero. Not to change the thread but it never made sense to me to try to hit higher FTP wattages on a road bike during OS then drop your FTP when you get on tri bike and get close to racing season. I'm a firm believer in training in aero position on your tri bike ALL year to condition yourself to make watts in aero position. I'm not saying you should never ride out of the bars or on a road bike, just that having a higher FTP to brag about on a road bike doesn't make you any faster on race day on your tri bike.
Coach P, would it help to finish the OS with a higher FTP on tri bike even if lower than you could've achieved on a road bike? I believe there has been at least one post on this in the past. Less time to adapt to position, etc while your body is also adapting to more running, swimming,etc.
Additionally, I'm intrigued by the suggestion to reverse to FTP and VO2 portions of the OS. Sounds like it has the potential to benefit some individuals who plateau from lots of FTP work quickly.
I also thought your FTP was already 340 sometime this year. At this point in your training, do you think it's easier to get a really high FTP or work on being able to hold a higher percentage of your FTP for a long time? None of the really strong (sub-5:00 IM splits) triathletes I know have extraordinarily high FTPs or power to weight ratios, but they can hold over 80% for 112 and still run well. Pushing your IM target to 260 instead of 230 will go a long way towards that dream bike split you're looking for.
In terms of reaching your body composition goals, it is FAR easier/simpler to eat less than to add workouts for the sole purpose of calorie burning. Adding more workouts to an already demanding training schedule is just going to detract from the quality of the other sessions in addition to costing you more time which you don't seem to have enough of as it is. The fact that you are considering adding swimming just to burn calories tells me that food is a bit of an achilles heel for you. Conquering that costs you no time, no money, and points you squarely in the direction of all your training and racing goals.
It's not a path for lightweights; it'll be tough, far tougher than 2x20s ever were. And there's no clear "finish line" so success becomes an elusive, subjective target.
I suggest 4-5 hours rides on the trainer in Z1 and maybe some in Z2 to work on that body comp!
I'm not sure there is ever "cruising" through OS! @Tucker What better way to work on body comp? BTW: Love the whip! Where'd you find it?
Actually more "junk" miles on bike is probably better for body comp than adding a swim coach P. Some studies have shown swimming in cool water actually increases sub q body fat. Mammalian response to environment.
Last yr in April I went "Cold Turkey" on ALL sweets. When I say cold turkey, I mean EVERYTHING. I still used gu's during my workouts but I refused to have "chocolate" flavor... I started it as a 10 day challenge to my mental self. For the first 3 days it was like I was a crack addict going through withdraws... I got the shakes and it took everything in my power to walk past the containers full of chocolate covered raisins at work. Days 3-5 were really hard. Days 5-8 were a little less hard. From about days 8-15, I got the same "high" everytime I walked past the chocolate and didn't eat it... Over the days 15-25 this "victory high" from passing on the stuff started to fade. After 30 days I was finally totally indifferent. It's like my body forgot what it was like so I didn't even crave it anymore. I literally went 6 months before IMLou and did not break or cheat one single time. To be honest, the last 5 months were actually quite easy. I always knew if I cheated even 1 time I would have to relive those absolutely miserable 10 first days...
It was sad to watch my kids eat cake and ice cream on their birthdays and not join them, but they didn't seem to care. I had my first cookie in 6 months in the med tent after IMLou and they were delicious. My mom got me a cake for when I got home and it made me sick to even eat it. It took me almost 3 weeks to "relearn" to enjoy swwets again as I felt as though I had earned that right. I have put on almost 15 lbs since IMLou and have decided to start my no sweets challenge again in January. You have bigger and grander goals than I for this yr, so maybe you should start yours tomorrow!
And it doesn't necessarily need to be sweets. But it should be what ever your biggest weekness is. Maybe that's sweets, maybe it's beer or wine. Maybe it's potato chips or processed food. But find your target (you already know what it is) and destroy it. And imagine how "sweet" your 4:55 bike split followed be a 3:05 run split will taste!
My notes, overal, for CoachP (btw, no need to return the favor
)
Swim:
You're giving up 5-8' on the swim. The level that you're at now (top 5 AG at IM distance), you might want to think about investing some time to get in the very low 60's to just under an hour. I had a friend, about your size, who picked up swimming as an adult and got himself to a 59' IM swim. In my experience, when you're swimming ~1:02-1:10, you are likely just 2-3 x small technique breakthru's away from making another swimming jump. So maybe invest in some quality 1:1 help 1-2x per month and then practice that stuff on your own 1-2x/wk?
Bike:
...but gains are harder and harder to reach and you're at an age and cummulative history in the sport where that's really true...without a dedicated cycling block. I was surprised at how easily I got much stronger during my cycling-only period last year. I think you definitely have the potential for a sub...5:10-12 IMUSA bike course split
Your FTP is never high enough
Run:
Not sure how many guys your size are running 3:2x IM marathons? Probably not many. What do you think your open marathon potential is and how would that translate to an IM marathon time? Sub 3:15? Dunno.
Body Comp:
As others have said, that's a huge pay off, for all of us, in two sports. That said, it's not like you're a big fat fatty fatman on race day either, but every lb helps/hurts at the pointy end.
Race Selection:
Hate to say it, but you're probably not doing yourself any favors with hilly bike and run courses. IMAZ is probably your best course: come out of the water with people around you, put a >320w FTP to work on a relatively flat and windy (aero advantage) bike course, then a flat run. Then, if you quality, you have almost a year vs 6-8wks to train up for Kona.
Marathons:
You're probably not doing your IM too many favors by integrating marathon training with the OS. So while in this thread I see a discussion of getting faster on the bike, I see a bit of a disconnect between that and your continued spring marathon goals.