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Question about run TSS

SwanieSwanie
in General Training Discussions

I would like some input from those experienced with WKO+ on why rTSS seems so much harder to accumulate. A two hour hard bike will likely produce a TSS of 130-160 but a two hour long run with a IF of .795 will only produce a rTSS of 82. The physiological cost of that 2 hour run is far higher than that of the 2 hour bike.  In WKO+ I have my threshold set at 6:40 and then my paces set by Joe Friel method. Is there a better way to set up my paces to more accurately represent the RPE of these runs? It seems that whenever my TSB drops below 0 my RPE for all runs goes way up. Yet even if my TSB is at -10 or -15 my RPE on the bike is relatively normal.

Comments

  • mgraffeomgraffeo
    Steve, TSS is a simple calculation, based on intensity factor (IF).

    TSS = IF^2 * time in hours * 100

    so if you're at an IF of 80% for 2 hours on the bike or on the run, you'll accumulate 128 TSS. Something is wrong with the workout file if it's only giving you 82 TSS after a two hour long run at 80%.

    BTW, the question of whether or not 2 hours running at 80% has the same physiological cost as 2 hours of biking at 80% is a whole different gorilla. Part of the reason why I don't put a ton of stock into CTL and TSB, as it's so much easier to 'game' with a higher volume of cycling.
  • SwanieSwanie

    Thanks Mike... I will check my run setup on WKO when I get home. It didn't sound right to me either.

  • Tom GlynnTom Glynn
    I believe rTSS gives you 110 points for an hour at FT.

    From my run yesterday:
    time 1:22:48
    IF 0.8
    rTSS 98

    so .8^2 X 1 23/60 x 110 = 98

    My understanding of the issue is that most people use a 10K race for FT, and for faster people this equates to 40 minutes or less, so the rTSS weights in with 110 rather than the cycling 100 points. Also running uses normalized graded pace, not pace to calculate IF. It uses the GPS technology to figure out elevation changes and gives more weight to uphill vs the flats.
  • SwanieSwanie

    @ ;Tom- Based on that equation my run on Thursday should have yielded a TSS of 147, but WKO gave me a TSS of 82. All of my runs have been low on the TSS scale.

     

  • Tom GlynnTom Glynn

    are you computing IF or is WKO computing it? Is it possible your Threshold Pace is off in WKO? The numbers I posted above were directly from my TP data as calculated by them.  Also, do you have different user data in the watch vs WKO?  I would assume the WKO+/TP formula would be the same so my next guess is the garbage in/garbage out theory, meaning we should look to what data it's using to calc.

  • Al TruscottAl Truscott

    @ Steve - there is something wrong with you, for sure! I set up my pace zone the same way as you do (with my slower threshold), and use "Friel Zones" to calculate zones, and get a more reasonable rTSS for my runs. So some possibilities:

    • Make sure that the date in the pace zone box in the upper right corner is correct. Try clicking on "Options" in that box, and select "New Zones". Then you can change the date; just set it to the day your threshhold became 6:40 (or when you started using WKO+, if it hasn't changed over time). Then select "Calculate zones" from the same Options drop-down, and pick "friel".

    • Or, your Garmin is dropping data when transferring to WKO? 

  • Doug HerrDoug Herr

    @ Steve,  I just ran across this thread and I have the same thing happen.  I have what I think is the answer but would welcome any input.  I called Garmin and they said that, looking at my file (I e-mailed the workout file to them), there are blank spaces in the data where it's not picking up.  So, the total TSS is coming up short.  They suggested, and I tried, wearing a heart monitor so that data gets transmitted more regularly.  That didn't fix it for me.  I devised the attached spreadsheet ("Run TSS Corrector") where I enter my run time and Normalized Graded Pace and plug it into the formula which I think is correct.  Then, I override the TSS in WKO with my "correct" TSS.

  • Shaughn SimmonsShaughn Simmons

    I also have the same problem as you guys.

    Example:  IF of .937 for 30 minutes should equal a TSS of 48.4 but WKO is registering 23.5.......?????

    I have used the 1 hour threshold pace for my to set the zones.......

    I think it must be a WKO thing?  I use a 310XT.  When I used the 305 I did not have this issue so it may be related to the 310XT and the way it communicates with WKO+

  • jhbinscjhbinsc

    Strange, I've used a 305, 405 and now a 310 and have not had any issues w/ rTSS. It gives me too much TSS actually if I forget to run it through elevation correction. And also have read 1 hour at run threshold is worth 110 TSS, not 100 TSS as for 1 hour at bike threshold wattage.

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