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Alternative Method to determine VDOT

Racing IMAZ in a few weeks and would like to refine my run pace. I've yet to come close to the LRP/EP estimates from recent VDOT tests and was wondering if using actual long run data might be helpful.

Searched the Wiki, but didnt find anything.

Comments

  • Are you saying that you can't run fast enough for your LRP/EP or that you are running too fast?

    Depending on your running strength it may be better to base your vdot off a longer race than the 5k. That would be something you'd have to decide on based on your experiences. Check out this thread for further explanation: http://members.endurancenation.us/Training/TrainingForums/tabid/101/aft/4839/Default.aspx#71827

  • Not fast enough...

    Here is my issue. I can run a 5k in 21:00, but there is no way i could run the corresponding marathon VDOT pace in either an open or full IM marathon. I just dont have the durability to do it. I wonder if this is a common problem or i'm the exception.

    I'll check out the thread.

    Thanks!

  • @ Henry - my n=1 answer is that I am simllar.

    For me, a well run stand alone marathon is about 3 points lower than my 5K vDot of 46. My PR run last spring was 2 points lower at 44.
  • Henry, new member, but long time runner here. +1 on the thread Jennifer provided. Personally, I've gotten into trouble trying to translate shorter distance VDOTs (even my 13.1 VDOTs based on actual 13.1 races) to full marathon execution times, even with significant run training. I believe that the EN guidance (found somewhere deep in running threads/guidance) is to add 2-3 VDOT points going from the 5k time to open marathon times. Having never seen this guidance (another benefit of being inside of the Haus), I am now kicking myself for 2-3 blown up marathons raced using 'pre-Haus' Haus mentality.
  • Henry - I use a "training" VDOT (based on my 5K time) and a "racing" VDOT (based on my half marathon race time). The difference for me is about 48/46. That usually works for me, once allowance is made for the heat factor. E.g., @ IM AZ when it is usually about 73 >> 67 F, my IM run time is 10-20 sec slower than my HM VDOT would predict.

    Since I don't use a pace watch during the race (I do check my mile splits), I pay exquisite attention to how I am feeling. For the first 6-8 miles, I am trying to run "stupid slow", going slower than I think I ought to, albeit with a quick cadence. From 8-about 16, I am running at what I think my LRP should feel like (again, warmer temps make the actual time slower). From there to the end of the race, I go through feeling like I'm running an open marathon, to the effort of a half marathon, to the perceived effort of a 10K (usually the last 4 miles). This ends up producing mile splits which are pretty even throughout the race.

    Another internal check I use is to continually ask the question, "Could I keep this effort level up for the rest of the race?" If the answer is "no", I slow down, by shortening my stride.

  • Thanks for the feedback everyone.

    @Al, your guidance on using a training and racing VDOT makes perfect sense to me.

  • Posted By Henry Sacco on 01 Nov 2011 12:47 PM

    Not fast enough...

    Here is my issue. I can run a 5k in 21:00, but there is no way i could run the corresponding marathon VDOT pace in either an open or full IM marathon. I just dont have the durability to do it. I wonder if this is a common problem or i'm the exception.

    I'll check out the thread.

    Thanks!



    Henry,

    I'm a little confused.  Are you trying to pace your IM run off of your vdot MP or LRP?  You should be using the LRP, not the MP.  In addition, you can adjust this based on the IM pacing chart where you select a percentage of your effort based on the type of runner you've shown yourself to be in training.  I tried to look through the WIKI to find it, but couldn't.  I'll do a better search later.  

    -Keith

  • Alright Henry, I finally found what I was looking for. Go to this link and download the Long Course Run Execution Pack. In this, you'll find a chart where you can explore what your IM pace should be based off of your vdot. It is not just about basing it off the vdot, but also basing it off a percentage of pace between 75% and 80% depending on how strong a runner you are. Look through this and see if it helps. Also pose any other questions and I'll see if I can help.

    https://www.box.net/shared/nleir8217e
  • Awesome Keith, thanks for the help!

  • Henry - 2x what Al said.  I have a training VDOT of 50  and IM race @ VDOT of 47.   No only does this help train your body to run faster, it trains your mind to have confidence that you can race successfully at the lower VDOT since you've trained faster.  The key is to make sure you really start out the IM run slowly the first 6 miles.  Frankly, I find this one of the hardest mental things to do in an IM since your body and everyone else racing around you wants to go like crazy at the start of the run.  Follow the EN guidance of LRP +:30 for the first 6 miles and you will be setting yourself for a strong run. You will catch and pass all those rabbits starting around mile 16 of the run.  Then from mile 18-20 on just give it everything you've got.  You'll pass even more people.  Following the EN race guidance at IMCDA this year, I came off the bike in 41st place in my age group, passed 25 guys in my AG on the run and finished in 16th place.  You can do this too with smart pacing.

  • Posted By Henry Sacco on 01 Nov 2011 12:47 PM

    Not fast enough...

    Here is my issue. I can run a 5k in 21:00, but there is no way i could run the corresponding marathon VDOT pace in either an open or full IM marathon. I just dont have the durability to do it. I wonder if this is a common problem or i'm the exception.

    I'll check out the thread.

    Thanks!

    I'm chiming in late here.  In the final run guide in the wiki it says that your VDOT for the longer distances is actually (usually) slower by 1-2 VDOT.  So if your VDOT is 45, you may want to run longer distances as if it's 43 or 44.

    Andi





     

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