EN for someone 66 years old?
Sorry to crash this forum...I don't yet qualify. But my father is 66 years old and just getting active for the first time since his 40's, and I'd love some input.
Last year he bought a bike and trained with a local group for a Century, which I rode with him. This year I convinced him to do the Chicago Triathlon (Oly distance), which he did via signing up for a local training group that met twice a week and gave him some workouts to follow. He finished the race MOP in this AG and seemed eager to capture a bunch of improvement he felt was on the table. Looking at the results, his bike is clearly weak relative to his AG. After the tri in August he didn't do much, but then he started running again, 3x/week, and today ran in the 18,000-person Hot Chocolate 5k, where he managed to come #1 in his AG (out of 24), holding a ~9:00/mile pace. This was his first ever running race so I was finally able to calculate a VDOT (34.3).
I have in the past suggested that he join EN but he is very concerned that the plans are too intense for someone his age. He was going to use the SC plan last year but upon viewing it he immediately felt it would not be feasible. The first running workout was "go run a 5k" (i.e. a VDOT test), and he had never done that before so took that to mean that the plans are just too hardcore and optimized for a younger and more durable athlete. (btw hats off to RnP, he emailed them that the plan wouldn't work for him and they refunded his money).
My immediate priority is to get him a powermeter for his bike so he can start building his FTP…I suspect his RPE is not well-calibrated and he is wasting his time doing intervals that are simply not effective. So my ebay skills are being put to the test looking for PowerTap wheels…
But more importantly is getting him an appropriate training plan for next year, beginning with the OS, so he can do another Olympic-distance tri but do it in a way that allows him to have fun and – critically – has the correct intensity and gives enough recovery so that he does not get injured and/or discouraged. Truthfully, the stock EN OS plan does seem pretty aggressive for a guy his age and experience level. I have not looked at the "basic" plans…do you think those would be more well-suited? I don't think any of you are quite my dad's age, but in any case do any of you make, or would you see as appropriate to make, modifications to the stock EN plans to adjust workout intensity and/or recovery time? For example, I have seen Al post that he slowly ramps up the durations of his z5 intervals in the OS. But then again, Al has a high-40's VDOT so he is really at another level of athletic performance and his modifications are really more for the elite AG athlete. And in any case, that is clearly an example of "self coaching" by someone who knows, based on significant experience, how to make a modification. My dad doesn't have the experience to make those kinds of modifications on his own…I think he'd be a bit freaked out with "here's a plan, but for it to work for you you'll need to do a bunch of stuff differently, but no one really can tell you what needs to be different".
Maybe I'm incorrect in presupposing that the plans aren't going to work for him out-of-the-box. But I do suspect that they are too intense.
Last but not least, do you feel that the benefits of the team (vs. purchasing a plan) are useful for someone in my dad's situation?
Sorry if these questions and thoughts are a little unstructured. Any input you all have would be greatly valued.
Many thanks!
Matt
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For me the desire to get fit and healthy came first and then once I felt I had made real progress I switched gears and have been working on getting faster ever since.
I think EN plans can be adapted. If they are too hard as written, take days off, cut the amount of time or intensity levels. A lot of it is really just learning to make effective use of your time and focus on the workouts with high returns. You just really need the desire to want to get faster.
Matt - Very cool that you are getting your Dad into triathlon, and running. Clearly, if he can win his AG in a big 15k race with only modest training, he has some talent. Here are my thoughts (from a soon to be 57 year old):
I think the EN plans can be modified too. Start with the beginner plans, and just go easy to build up his durability. At the start, the key for your Dad is consistency of workouts and not getting injured since it takes longer to heal as we get older. I've found that as I get older I need both more rest and less rest. Let me explain. I need more rest between individual workouts so that I can recover, especially after a hard run interval session (this is the danger of the EN plans for older athletes). So after a hard run , the next day is almost always a swim day or a complete rest day. Often, I'll just take an extra day of rest regardless of what the EN plan says. This extra rest is geared towards injury prevention. Additionally, I need less rest over a long period time. By this I mean, I must be consistently working out week to week (even if I rest more within the week). I've found that I lose my fitness very fast (much faster than when I was younger) if I take 2-3 weeks off completely, and it takes FOREVER to get back to the same level of fitness i was at before the break. Net, except after an IM or marathon race (when I'll take 3-5 days off completely) or being ill, I seldom go more than 2 days without working out. I simple vary the acitivity (swim, bike, run), the volume and intensity to get active rest.
Another thing I'd share is that weight training can be a good thing for older triathletes. I know it isn't part of the EN program for younger folks, but it is very helpful to build and maintain overall fitness and strength for older guys. Al Truscott has a weight routine and I follow one as well - 2 days a week. This isn't about building bulk, but about maintaining strength and durability. So it is relatively low weight with multiple reps (2 sets of 15 reps) working a variety of muscle groups (legs, arms, back, chest, abs). I've found it takes me about 30 minutes to do a complete set.
Finally, a consistent stretching program is a must. This is really part of the recover process so I stretch after each workout. I do hams, quads, calves/achilles, shoulders, neck, hip flexor). I think that this is so important that if I'm short on time, I'll cut the workout time to make sure I can stretch afterwards.
Well, I didn't really give you much help about modifying the details of the SC plans, but did want to share with you my perspective on being an older triathlete. Hope this helps and good luck to your dad.
I think the EN plans can be used for individuals of all ages. The training efforts are tagged to current fitness levels. As fitness increases the paces will. The EN plans will give a mix of quality and endurance workouts mixed into the week. With limited base, I would not try to hit all workouts as written in a week for the first month or 2. Let the body adapt to the new levels of work. With what we know about the interval work causing the greatest adoptions I would suggest keep those in for each sport and shorted the length if needed.
The key balance will be ensuring adequate recover so as not to overload the body and get injured. The following is an excerpt from the book Brain Training for Runners by Fitzgerald, it gives a usable set of guidance on how to adjust workouts based on fatigue levels and the need for recovery.
“ I defined responsive training as modifying your planned workout as necessary depending on how you feel immediately before or after you start running. Responsive training is most crucial in key workouts. If you're too fatigued from previous training (or whatever else) to perform adequately in a key workout, you're better off doing an easier alternative workout instead.
In my experience, it is seldom possible to anticipate ahead of time whether you are going to perform well or poorly in a key workout. You just have to start running and then make a judgment about whether to continue based on how you feel. Here are some responsive training guidelines.
• Always complete your planned workout if vou are hitting your target pace and feel at least “fair” on a scale of great-good-fair-bad-terrible.
• If you are failing to hit your target pace and you feel fair, cut the planned workout in half. For example, instead of doing 2o minutes of tempo running at 1oK pace, do 10 minutes.
• If you are failing to hit your target pace and you feel bad, switch to an easier key workout featuring short intervals at a high intensity. Runners usually feel and perform better on their flat days when they shorten and speed up their high-intensity efforts. I have no idea what the neurophysiologic mechanism behind this phenomenon may be, but that doesn't make it any less real. So, for example, if you start a 20-minute tempo run at 10K pace and feel bad, try switching to 5 x doom at 5K pace. You'll probably feel better and you’ll get more out of the workout than you would if you had to resort to the next option, which is this:
• If you are failing to hit your target pace and you feel terrible, switch to a recovery run. Make the run as short and slow as necessary to feel at least “fair” (you probably won't feel any better than fair on such days). “
Also 2X on the value of weight training for us older athletes!
Best of luck finding a plan / structure / process that will work for your father. 66 is still young!!!
Use it or lose it, that's the motto as we get older.
First off, two quick thoughts. EN plans do not prescribe speed or intensity, just time and/or distance. Thus, when confronted with a plan which starts off saying "go run a 5K", all one has to do is run 3 miles at whatever speed one chooses. That speed then becomes one's training pace until the next "test". So if a "fast" or "hard" 5K scares you, just do what you can, train based on that pace, and then do another one 4-6 weeks later. You'll almost surely see some improvement, without worrying about how "hard" you need to work.
Cae in point (my second thought): A year ago, I was in the midst of recovery from an accident which cased me to lose 15 # (on a base of 145#), mostly muscle, and also required me to be totally on the couch for 3+ months. I started back in at essentially square zero, and "ran" a 5k at a speed which almost made me cry. But I used that pace and the OS plan, starting with the beginer plan, to build myself up by 6 VDOT points without feeling like I was overworking things.
The cool thing about the EN plans for older people (or for people just getting into sport) is that they focus on making every minute of training count - ROI - so that what work you do doesn't get you simply tired, it gets you faster.
Now, as to modifying plans for individual's needs: I'd note that peole of any age may need to modify them, based on where they are in their athletic career and their own capabilities. The simple strategy is: first, reduce the amount of time at the prescribed intensity, second, reduce the intensity, and third, reduce the frequency (take a day off).
I get a hint of contradiction in your comments about your father. On the one hand, he wants to make some improvement in his Olympic Distance tri performance, based on a self-perception that he's leaving some time on the table. On the other hand, he seems a little leery of the hard work required to make those improvements. The truth is, even for us OFs, getting better requires some amount of effort. The good news, after medical clearance (e.g., your heart can take it), a little bit of speed/intensity will go a long way towards making that improvement. The payoff: there's nothing like a first place medal (or ribbon) to boost one's self-esteem when society is trying to shunt you to the background.
Here's a recent post about aging and endurance training:
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/11/q-a-.html
Key quote: "As we age there is a tendency to increase duration at the expense of intensity. Workouts become longer and easier. The aging athlete needs to do just the opposite [emphasis added] if he or she is to slow the aging process. Workouts above 80% intensity factor with an emphasis on muscular endurance, anaerobic endurance and sprint power (see my Training Bible books for details) should be the basis of their training. This typically results in shorter training sessions but higher weekly average intensity. This stimulates testosterone release and maintains muscle mass."
Also, if you have access to this month's (Dec) Triathlete Mag, check Joanna Zeiger's "Fast at Forty" column on page 22. The essential message is one I subscribe to: improvement is possible at any age, given a consistent, disciplined approach.
"Age is just a question of mind over matter; if you don't miknd, it don't matter."
Thanks for the timely and thoughtful replies. This is all really, really helpful. I actually sent these all to my dad and he was extremely appreciative:
"…Thanks so much for seeking out this information. I have devoured it. There is much food for thought. We'll need to begin to have a discussion about goals and planning…"
Btw, to Al's 'contradiction' point, yes, he is 'leery' of hard work. But it is not 'leery' in terms of an unwillingness to do hard work or him not being enthusiastic to engage it (quite the opposite on that dimension, actually). The 'leeriness' I think is more a skepticism that, at his age, he'll be able to dial up the intensity without getting injured. He can be quite motivated and, like me, he won't do something half-assed. As a result, I think he sees a possible outcome where he bites off more than his body can chew, so to speak. Hence his tentativeness in using a bunch of plans that he perceives may not be well-suited to an older body.
Over the coming weeks we'll figure out a good path for him, and perhaps he will join EN as a team member.
Thanks again, this is all very helpful.
p.s. Bruce, maybe you'll meet him when we get the Chicagoland EN-ers together next time. He and my mother moved to Chicago about 3 years ago (from Toronto, where they resided for the past ~3 decades).
Matt: your comments about being leery of intensity reflects what many people think about EN in general, ask us about our training plans via email, etc.
In general, there is this perception that "intensity" = running very hard = automatic injury. As you know, the VDot pacing stucture has been vetted across millons of athletes and it scales well as your fitness increases.
Finally, I would encourage any adult to not follow a training plan into a brick wall. I don't think that training plans injure athletes as much as athletes don't do a common sense audit to the training plan that's in front of them. Of course, there are "good" plans and "bad" plans, but choosing to follow a bad plan to the point of injury is, I feel, abdicating personal responsibility.
The answer I give to these days whenever anyone asks us about us is to just encourage them to create a 5-day trial membership. It would be very valuable for your dad to have these conversations in here with his peers and our athletes.
My Dad has decided to join EN! Like most new members he'll be drinking from an information fire hose for a while, but lucky for him he has me as an EN tourguide.
I'm sure he'll eventually stumble into this fourm and introduce himself. But of course priority #1 is getting him teed-up to start the OS next week. We've been doing some pre-OS trainer rides so hopefully he'll be ready to hit it hard.
Thanks again for all your input!
Matt
@ Matt - Good News!
@ Matt's Dad - Welcome. Good luck with your training. Just so you know, the Boomers and Beyond forum is where all the cool OFs (old farts) hang out. Many guys with decades of cumulative knowledge, so ask lots of questions. Somebody will offer a quick and insightful reply. I know they sure helped me when I joined EN last year.
Thanks for the warm welcome, the wisdom and the encouragement. I made it through OS week 1... and I'm back for week 2! I feel I have the best of both worlds, the EN self coaching model and Matt's encouragement and discipline. I'm looking forward to a very exciting season.
Richard - Good job on week 1. Sounds like you have a gr8 attitude. Just pace yourself since the OS gets tougher as the weeks go by.
Marian - welcome aboard! The key to success (no matter how you define it for yourself) is to (a) work on stretching your bounderies just a little bit as every week goes by and (b) consistency, consistency, consistency - "90% of success in life is just showing up". In this case, on a daily basis for your scheduled workout.
I have been in the Haus for just over a year (and just turned 60) and have been improving all the time.
If you have any questions, I really want to encourage you just to ask either the coaches or the other guys.
Marian, being 65 i must also modify the training plans. one issue i have not finalized is intervals with biking. if it says 8 min at z4, then 4 min then 12 min at z4. it may take me 3 min to get to z4. do i count that in my first 8 min at z4? sometimes i can bike 20 min and not get into z4 even if i stand the whole time. i've tested where my zones should be several times and they always come out about the same. i fear my warm ups may need to be more than warming me up. i may need to use that time to get me into at least pre z4. ok, i'm lazy.
Jim, the Z4 time starts as soon as the Z4 effort starts, even though it may take time for your HR to actually rise to Z4. This is the same for all of our intervals.
so s i understand it. as soon as i put the "effort" in (even if my HR mon says z2) i should count it as time in z4 (?) if true, i like that. but i guess using watts would be more accurate.
Yes, that's correct. What you're experiencing is another argument for training with watts vs heart rate, especially for intervals like this. If you do have power, use that as primary and HR as secondary or not at all/curiousity.
@ Marian - Welcome aboard!! 3 x what Al said. Consistency and injury avoidance are the keys. Just focus on getting a little better, a little stronger each day and in a few months you will surprise yourself. Ignore all of the posts you see from a 30 year old ENer about how hard a workout they did - just track your own progress versus where you started. Also, ask lots of questions in this forum. There is a huge body of knowledge here and people are so willing to share. That's one of the best things about EN.