Swimming in the OS for a SC Athlete

kevhill

Hi, am in Nov OS, doing a full short course season in 2012. Posted this is the SC group but didn't get a response.

Would like some input on whether to swim during the OS (and when to start), and if to swim what plan should I be following? 

Obviously for Short Course a couple of minutes improvement from a better swim is worth quite a bit, especially as the swim is a bigger % of the overall time compared to Long Course racing. Also for me I am quite lucky that my condo has a 50m pool (literally 10ft from my back door) and is warm all year round here (water temp 77-79F all the time). So other than fatigue there are no other impediments to swimming for me. As background am an ok swimmer - PB of 28 mins in OD, 61 mins for IM.

Given that, questions i have are:

1. When should I start swimming, now? in 4 weeks or when? (First SC 'B' race is start of May).

2. What plan should I use for swims - the OS swim hack, or load up the full SC plan 20 weeks from first B race and use those and the swim plan?

kkiefer

 Kevin, 

even so my A Race is between Oly and HIM distance, i will plugin in 12week SC training plan in April for my race in June.

My Swim is ok (T pace  1:40-1:45/100m).  I decided to stop swim workouts for the OS.

My ROI is higher in the Run and Bike training than on the swim, but I admit that I will use the transition weeks to get quickly back my swim form.  

Look through your SC results of this year.  If your spits are in the Top 10% in bike and run, yes you might gain more by the swim. 

I looked where my swim splits were compared to my bike and runs splits relative to the field. My swims splits were mostly in the Top 15-20%, where as on bike and run i was in the to 35-50%.

On the swim I can win 1-2 maybe 3 minutes, but I can win or loose based on my bike on the run easly 5-15min. 

Hope that makes sense.

 

Paul Hough

I think the Haus opinion is definitely that you should stop unless you are seriously slow in the water right now. If you limit your goal horizon to 2012, then I agree with the EN advice...you will simply get much better ROI by training hard on the bike and run and stopping the swim. However, I would ask not where you want to be next year, but where do you want to be in 5 years? If you need a significant longterm improvement in swimming to climb the ranks (assuming that's even a goal), then stopping for several months each year is probably not going to get you where you want to be well down the road. That will require some winter drill work along with annual underwater videotaping and review with a good swim coach to make sure you on a path of continual improvement.

mgraffeo

Kevin, there's two key elements to answer the question.

1) ROI - most of the haus doesn't swim in the OS due to a high overhead (2 hours real time to get a 1 hour swim workout in). You don't have that problem. 28 minute OD swim leaves plenty of room for improvement.

2) relative strengths - where are you in the field on the bike and run? If you're running 4.0 watts/kg and a 55 vdot, then the calculus is different than if you're running a 2.8 watts/kg and a 38 vdot.

Bottom line is that there's only so many hours in the day, and you can't get fast at everything all at once. Is there room for improvement in the swim? Yes. Is it worth considering doing the OS swim hack? Sure. Is there a chance that doing the OS swim hack will make you pretty darned tired, and cause some of the swim and/or bike workouts to suffer? Yes, there is. It's up to you to manage that.

From my own experience, I'm focused on short course next year, too. I raced at USAT AG Nationals this year, finished in 2:16, good for top half of the AG. My goal for next year is to put together a huge improvement, which is going to require about 4 minutes off the swim, 3-4 off the bike, and 2 off the run. So, I'm planning to do the OS swim hack, since I know that taking that kind of time off the swim won't come easy, nor in 12-14 weeks. However, knowing that plan, I also know that I need to be focused on recovery throughout the week, and on good nutrition as well. It's a calculated risk/reward, but I think I'm going to be OK, because I also know how to 'pace' myself through an OS (which took me a couple of times through to understand).

Coach Rich

What Mike said regarding where you are in your swim relative to the bike and run. For example, if you are running a 48' and/or riding 1:10-15 on the bike, there is much more time to be had there, much easier, than on the swim.

Also, 61' IM swim is rarified air. For perspective, back in the day I was a 53-54' swimmer. Had a shitty swim at IMWI and went 56:5x. So my lifetime of swimming, from age 8 to 22 and now 43yo with BIG stretches of no swimming, at all, buys me about 4-5 minutes on you. You will have to do a LOT of very, very hard swimming to go from 1:01 to a :57-58. Sub 58'...probably double it again.

I'm sorry, but at some point the work required for significant swim gains and the ROI on those gains just don't make a lot of sense, regardless of if your pool is 10m or 10mi from your door. I would counter by saying that at your level of swimming, you're likely to only get those gains if you swim FAST with faster people. In my experience, there's only so much you're able to do in the pool when you're solo. I did my best to get several lunchtime swim dates with Barry Plaga, EN member, good friend, and a low 50's swimmer because I typically swim 2-3"/100m faster with him next to me vs by myself. So, my counter is that your superconvenient pool will actually be less effective because you're likely not going to swim as fast as you would in a masters swim session, for example.

Look for an article in the blog on this swim ROI in the next couple days.

kkiefer

Kevin, I read the thread an second time and also reflecting Matt's and Rich's answer.

But i got started thinking in the same line you are thinking.

I agree swim in OD has a different weight to the overall race result than in HIM/IM. So loosing 2-3 mins means a lot to me as well (eps. I want to be 10mins faster)



I am with you on the concern, are the 12weeks swim enough to get back into a similar/better form on the swim.

Or is there a benefit of starting maybe some of the technik drill work in the later part of the OS, so I can enter the 12week SC plan with good swim technique.



Here is my Background:

I am Nov OS too, my A race in Mid June, based on Coach R review I should plugin into the 12wk SC plan.



I started to learn freestyle swimming in May 2010 and trained consistently 1-2 a week (to manage my back pain issues).

Than I started this year to train for a Oly races and swam 3times a week.

My SC results where this year in the 2:30 ranges, where my PR on swim was 26:30 (non wetsuite), my PR run on 10k 44min, and my bike sucked.

(this was my first triathlon season, having now endurance or bike background, but I used to play 20+ years Volleyball

I stopped swimming end September to get a break and to try the EN style of NOS, knowing that on my Bike and Run I can gain more ( a lot i hope ).

Pool Access is less difficult that in many places in US but still I have 30-40min admin costs.



Here is why I am going to do, I will follow for now NOS without Swim during till week 13-14 and than see how I deal with fatigue, if i am ok I see if i can add a swim session on wednesday and sunday after my runs focusing on swim technique and drill work and short intensive pull-sessions to get my arms used to work again.

Again this is currently my thinking, I will peak and poke that idea for a few more weeks and than i will see with the coaches if I get approval .



BTW: I challenge bit Coach Rich POV that it is difficult to get faster alone. My family is very involved in the local swim club, but I skip the master sessions, because of time and style of training. Yes we benchmark sometimes, but I got from 20+min to 18min to 16:30min on 1k trail, and I am certain I can go sub 16:00 easily by training myself. But I agree that doing volume with others is feels more easy.