Can I work the data tool, or JD formula, backwards

morpheus

 this will be my 2nd OS.

Last year, I boogered every run test.  The first one had me underestimating the distance and overshooting the resulting vdot.  Got injured (only injury of the year, silver lining).  Made me gun shy on all of the following run tests.  Meaning that may have been the only true 'run test' that I did during training.

Based on what I learned last year, RPE and pace stuff, would it be crazy to work the data tool, or Jack Daniel's Formula, backwards (question mark key not working, sorry).  

Goal-> 4:00 IMFL marathon (ultimate goal of 11:00 IMFL)     9:30 miles gets 4:07ish.  SWAG it down to 9:20 MP and its real close.  I think I can train these zones right now, much more so after 6 months of training before I even hit the IM plan building to the November race.

what are your concerns with this (question)

has anyone else tried this (question)

 

Thanks,

Chris

 

 

 

 

Peter Greagg

Hi Chris — the biggest problem with your proposed approach is that you have not "earned" the right to train at these higher paces.
As running has the most injury issues, it is particularly important you don't try and train with too much intensity.
Because of the injury issues with running, Daniels emphasises this point — do not work backwards from what you want to race at! Absolutely, only train at paces you have earned the right to run at through testing.
And us in the Haus use the Daniels approach because it is a proven approach that maximises the improvement while at the same time minimises the chance of injury.
Cheers
Peter

morpheus

@ Peter, the more I've thought about... I've plugged in some numbers into the data tool backwards by slowly working up a phantom 5k test until my EP looked like my IMFL goal pace. And, after looking at the results, I believe I can go do a real 5k at that pace, with some to spare.

So, I think I'll go the recommended route.
once my calf heals up.

thanks

jhbinsc

How are you messing up the run tests??? Do you have a track or GPS to track distance? Can you do a local 5K? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the questions but not recommended to SWAG your VDOT. Keep testing until you get it right or don't use a higher VDOT you've not "earned".

morpheus

You're right Jeff.

messing up meant using a Polar footpod that was calibrated wrong. So, stopped early. thinking I had hit 3.1 on local roads. HA. got hurt then. Then, trained z4/z5 with a false vdot and kept aggravating the injury. After I healed up, I swagged the vdot down, but the damage was done. There was no way in hell I was going to test again. I avoided them like the plague.

This year, I'm gonna use a local 5k, run hard but not 'get hurt hard', and stick to the flatness of the local high school track for most of the intervals.

re: Keep testing until you get it right or don't use a higher VDOT you've not "earned".
I'm actually swagging down. I thought I had earned a higher vdot, but the intervals killed me and I never executed well in the races. Running reasons or biking too hard or whatever it was. So, I'm ready to accept a lower vdot to be able to train more consistently on the run.

jhbinsc

Ahh. OK. I got you now. Good luck and stay healthy my friend!

Peter Greagg

x2 what Jeff said!

Keith Wick

@ Chris--- and just so you know, we don't run our IM at MP pace, we run them at LRP. There is no way you are going to hold your MP in an IM after biking 112 miles. If you do then your paces are really wrong.

morpheus

Keith - I'm playing around with the data tool. Plugged in 22:45 for a 5k test, 7:20 miles. Spit out 9:37 for EP. So, you raise a good point...need to get that 5k faster to earn the 9:20ish EP (assuming EP is LRP, right?).

As I mentioned, I'll step up and do a 5k if my calf is feeling better, though I am confident that I can hit 22:30 even with the bum leg. That's what's a little backwards about this. I guess I'll know more if/when I actually get some 5k results.

morpheus

looks like a 22:00 goal time for the 5k puts me in the ballpark for what I'm shooting for.

Keith Wick

Yes, EP and LRP are the same. Your looking at something around a 46-47 vdot to get around that 9:00 me pace

tuckerm

@Chris, maybe I am wrong here and you are the man who isn't going to slow down at all in his IM marathon, but if I were you I'd bee looking at getting that Vdot a few points higher than what you are thinking. a 22' 5k gives an EP @ 9:27. Plus remember you will be giving up at least 3' in the first 6 miles as it is EP + 30".
I'm not saying you won't hold your EP for the rest of the marathon, I'm just thinking you want some buffer in there. a 20-21' 5k would be a much better goal to shoot for, not the bare minimum.

John Withrow

IMFL usually doesn't have much of a "Heat Adjustment" but may have a little bit, so better get to the lower end of what Tucker is suggesting to be even safer...

morpheus

You guys are right on.

I'm realistic about how hard it will be to hold the pace steady and even. I will be working hard for that buffer. I'm talking about my starting point here, baseline start of OS stuff (Jan). Haven't been running much due to an injury, but I gotz plans for a late December 5k. If I grab a 22', give or take a few seconds, I'll be cool with it. The way I see it, from that point on, it's all about building that buffer.

I guess that's the difference here. Last year, I thought I had to become a cool fast runner, with no endpoint or goal. Now, I look at it like 'here's the goal numbers, now build it'. Does that make sense?

Also, keep in mind that I originally posted about working the tool backwards. I've conceded that. Testing, as hated as it is, is truth. For any of us to make the progress we want, we must put ego aside, do the test, and work with 'The Truth'!

TH3 FRB

My honest opinion here is that training with a specific end goal time/pace is going down the wrong road. Bottom line is that you have a certain fitness right now and that dictates what your training paces should be. As you progress your training paces will get faster. You may or may not get to your A race with the fitness to run a 4hr marathon. It's fine to have a goal to work towards but don't sabbatoge yourself by reverse engineering your training based on that goal pace. Your training needs to reflect NOW, not what you want/hope it will be. I'd love to run 3:10 in my IM this year and I think that is realistic for me but all I can do is train smart and see if it puts me in a place to do that come August. If not I need to accept that and execute accordingly no matter how much I WANT to run X pace.

So, best advice is to get yourself a GPS watch (Forerunner 405 is cheap these days) and do a proper test either on your own or at a local race. FYI - you can plug any distance you want into the data tool. It's based on VDOT which isn't specific to 5k. So if you were able to figure out a relatively accurate distance for one of those botched tests and have your time it will still give you a decent set of training paces to work with.

morpheus

Well said Joel. I'll keep coming back to this one every time I start thinking crazy in the next year. Thanks.