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Tracking Performance

Can anyone give me advise on what the best tool is for tracking all of my data. I have wko for power tracking on the bike, (does it do running) i also have garmin connect for running or bike, but doesnt do the power tracking like wko. And then there is the datat tool link with in EN, but i think this is just for test reporting, not everyday training tracking. Please help, i love to track my performace after each workout, but dont like going to multiple sites. Thanks

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  • If you already have WKO+ then that is a fine program for all of your training. Your Garmin data can be dumped directly into WKO+, and you can manually enter swimming, lifting etc to maintain a solid overview of your entire training effort. The more you use WKO+ the smarter you will become and after gathering data for a season or so you will develop some great insight into the amount of training that you can handle at any given time, and the amount of TSS/TSB that you should have as races get closer.

    Additionally, there are some really, really wise, long time WKO+ users here that stand ready to help and answer your questions.
  • +1 on the use of WKO+ as the backbone for tracking and analyzing workout data. I also have a couple of other companion pieces. All of my runs go into Garmin training Center and all my bikes go into PowerAgent (PowerTap), as well as all my workouts into a Mac program called The Athlete Diary. I tend to use those later ones to compare the workouts on the same course over the months and years,and WKO+ to assess my on-going training and fitness status. 

  • I use WKO+ for bike analysis only. For general tracking (including performance maangement chart) I use TrainingPeaks. The reason I use TrainingPeaks is because I track food consumption in a pretty detailed way and TrainingPeaks has good integration of nutrition and workout functionality. I also upload all workouts to Garmin Connect. I suspect that over the next year Garmin Connect will become more robust with respect to power analysis. People have been speculating for a while that TrainingPeaks will eventually have all of the functionality of WKO+, but after a year and a half as a premium member of TrainingPeaks I have yet to see functionality improvements that are more than aesthetic. One final option is Sport Tracks. Unlike TrainingPeaks and Garmin Connect it is client software on your computer. A lot of people like it but it is a bit unpolished for my taste since it relies on 3rd party -developed plugins for advanced functionality.
  • I use WKO+ for all my workouts including swimming. I SWAG 1 TSS for each minute of moderate swimming. A bit more (10%) or less if you are swimming very hard or very ez. 40 minutes of steady swimming = 40 TSS. For lifting, I use a bit less. 10 minutes of 100 pushups plus some crunches, situps and front/side/rear planks I add only 5 TSS.

  • Meant to add, it is more about being consistent in using the same SWAG for swimming/lifting. I also use a seperate PMC for all sports as well as each single sport to track CTL, TSB, etc for each sport and total.

  • SWAG? help me out. I'm only on chapter 9 of Training and Racing with power and have only used wko for a few weeks for the bike only.
  • Scientific wild ass guess = SWAG
  • LOL. Yep, that's it. SWAG. Keep reading Robert. It is a great book but nothing beats using and living w/ WKO for a while too.

  • Per Training Peaks

    Calculating Swimming TSS Score« Back to articles


    By Matt Fitzgerald and Stephen McGregor, PhD

    TrainingPeaks WKO+ automatically generates training stress scores (TSS) for bike rides uploaded from a power meter and for run workouts uploaded from a speed and distance device. Triathletes who use WKO+ and appreciate this feature often wish that the program could do the same for swim workouts. Unfortunately, the swimming equivalent of a bike power meter or run speed and distance device does not yet exist. However, you can calculate TSS for your swims manually using a method we’ll describe in this article.

    Why not simply use the same calculation for swim TSS that is used for running, in which the metric of pace is also used to quantify the training load? Because water presents more resistance than air, so the physiological stress of swimming increases with increasing swim speed faster than the physiological stress of running increases with increasing running speed.

    The simplest, if not the most accurate, way to account for this difference in calculating TSS scores is to weight the “intensity factor” of swim workouts differently than it is weighted for run workouts. Specifically, we suggest, it should be cubed as opposed to squared.

    Determining Functional Swimming Threshold Speed

    Training stress score calculations in running and cycling are scaled according to the individual athlete’s current functional threshold pace (running) and functional threshold power (cycling), which correspond roughly to the lactate threshold running pace or cycling power. The lactate threshold can only be determined through laboratory testing, while the functional threshold is determined through field tests that are known to yield roughly equivalent results.

    Similarly, the functional swimming threshold pace is a stand-in for the laboratory-determined swimming lactate threshold pace. There are two approaches that are most appropriate for the determination of swimming FTP. The first is the straightforward timed effort, where you swim as far as possible in a given time (e.g. 30 or 60 minutes). So, if you swim for 30 minutes and cover 1000 meters, then you can use the value of 33.3 m/min. as your FTP. Since the actual FTP is closer to the one-hour effort, it might be more advisable to perform a 60-minute test, or to take the value obtained for 30 minutes, multiply by two and subtract 2.5 percent (as most trained swimmers swim roughly 2.5 percent slower in a 60-minute maximal effort than in a 30-minute maximal effort). So again, if you cover 1000 m in 30 minutes, your 60-minute FTP would be 1900 m/hr or 31.7 m/min. This may seem like a minor difference, but due to the resistive aspect of swimming, small differences can have a substantial impact.

    If you are not inclined to perform such long, exhaustive efforts in the pool, you may alternatively perform a critical velocity (CV) test. This method consists of two test efforts at different distances (200 m and 400 m) separated by a complete rest. Because complete rest is required for the results of a CV test to be valid, it is best to perform the first all-out effort at the beginning of one workout (after warming up, of course) and the next at the beginning of another. Record the time required to complete each effort and simply plot the results on a graph as distance vs. time. The slope of that line is your critical speed. Alternatively, a simple equation yields the same result:

    Critical speed = (Distance of longer test swim – distance of shorter test swim) divided by (Time of longer test swim – time of shorter test swim)

    For example, suppose you swim your 200m test swim in 2:02 (2.04 minutes) and your 400m test swim in 4:21 (4.35 minutes). Your critical velocity, then, is (400m – 200m) ÷ (4.35 min. – 2.02 min.) = 86.6 meters/min.

    The results of your critical speed determination should yield a result that is very close to a 60-minute test or a laboratory-determined lactate threshold pace. Either of these results can then be used as the FTP for determination of TSS and performance modeling.

    Calculating swim TSS

    Now that you know your swim FTP, you can easily calculate the TSS for any swim workout using the following procedure:

    1. Measure total distance covered for the workout

    2. Determine time to cover total distance (not including rest periods)

    3. Express distance vs. time in m/min to obtain normalized swim speed (NSS), which is analogous to the normalized power and normalized graded pace in cycling and running, respectively

    4. Divide NSS by FT to obtain IF

    5. Swim TSS = (Intensity Factor cubed) x hours x 100

    For example:

    Once you have determined the swim TSS, you can manually input values in Training Peaks WKO+ and then use the program’s analysis features for swimming as you do with running and cycling. Let’s look at an example of a specific workout. First, let’s suppose that your swim FTP is 75 m/minute. Next, let’s suppose you complete the following workout (remember, rest periods are not counted):

    Warm-up: 200 m @ 3:20, 30 sec. rest (3:20 total)

    Drills: 4 x 50 m @ 1:00, 10-sec. rest (4:00 total)

    Main set: 10 x 100 m @ 1:15, 20-sec. rest (12:30)

    Cool-down: 200 m @ 3:20 (3:20 total)

    Total workout distance: 1,600 m

    Total workout time: 23:10 (or 0.386 hours)

    The average pace for the complete workout is 1,600 meters divided by 23:10 (23.16 minutes or 0.386 hours) or 69 m/min. The intensity factor for the complete workout is the average pace (69 m/min.) divided by the athlete’s functional threshold pace (75 m/min.) or 0.92. To cube IF, multiply it by itself three times (So, in this example, 0.92 x 0.92 x 0.92). So the TSS for the workout is So the TSS for the workout is 0.778 x 0.386 hours x 100 = 30.1.

    There are some important limitations of our do-it-yourself method of swim TSS calculation to bear in mind. First of all, although this simplistic approach can be effective, it should be noted that by simply tracking distance and time swum, the effects of rest periods on the sustainable efforts are neglected, whereas in cycling and running they are not, because power meters and speed and distance devices capture coasting and non-movement as part of the workout.

    Similarly, our rough-and-ready method of calculating swim TSS lacks the exponential weighting of higher intensities that is done automatically with pace and power in the digital calculation of normalized cycling power and normalized graded pace, and which is an important means of capturing the exponentially greater stress imposed by higher intensities. That being said, the cubed weighting of the IF counterbalances this limitation to a certain extent.

    These calculations ignore the differences between different swim strokes and the rather substantial differences in efficiency that result from good or poor technique. Finally, the impact of flip turns and push-offs is essentially neglected using this approach.

    Still, it’s a lot better than nothing, which is what triathletes interested in logging their swim workouts on WKO+ have had up to this point!

  • Great catch David. I read that article too but laziness got to me and I stuck w/ good ole SWAG. I probably need to start calculating it when I start back swimming next year.

  • Thx Jeff, the part of this article I don't get is the math of this quote-

    For example, suppose you swim your 200m test swim in 2:02 (2.04 minutes) and your 400m test swim in 4:21 (4.35 minutes). Your critical velocity, then, is (400m – 200m) ÷ (4.35 min. – 2.02 min.) = 86.6 meters/min.

    How is 2:02 , ie 2 min 2/100 sec equal to 2.04 in min , that just doen't make sense to me , anybody got an idea on this ? Same thing with 4:21 = to 4.35 min ... confused
  • 2 min and 2 seconds or 2/60 of a min is ~4/100 of a minute
  • @matt- how does one load up their files to garmin that may have orginiated from another device (joule), i just logged into my garmin connect site where all of my run data has gotten to from my 310xt, but thought based on your prediction above that this might be a place to really start tracking all....



    looks like if i set it up, i might be able to Upload files from the joule through the garmin communicator plug in to their site, but what about my 1 years worth of data in WKO+? any thoughts...?

    ok, edit here, think i found the manual upload. they only support. .tcx .gpx & .fit files

    i am assuming my joule files are non of these, guess i am SOL?

    further to this, now that i have one year's worth of bike & run data (will start to add swim data per above) into WKO+, what should i be looking for in WKO+ to analyze my work better?

  • This is now pretty off topic, but for swim TSS I use the number calculated automatically in training peaks based on having input my t-pace. I then use the "override" in wko and enter that number into WKO so they all match.
  • Scott, over time I keep an eye on the Performance Management Chart. After watching it for a season or so you will begin to see trends and understand the ATL, TSB and CTL number ranges where you perform your best at races, and less than terrific as well.

    Here is a great starting point - http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/what-is-the-performance-management-chart.aspx
  • @ Al , good find too . I'm new to WKO, a few months, and have been brought up to an understanding mostly by Coach P and his Crucible reveiws'.

    @ Robert , thx for the math lesson , I still dont get how 2/60 = 4/100 but I'll ask around and figure it out. As I said to Al check out coach P reviews of the submitted crucible files lots of good information there .
  • Does Garmin Connect have the updated bike power metrics yet?

    I have been using WKO for two years but I'd prefer a web based alternative. I'm also a Mac user so I have to dust off an old Windows based computer every time I want to use it. I'm not one to over analyze everything so I just like to look at basic results. I have no need for fancy graphs and charts.
  • Hi Matt,

     

    I am new to WKO+ so could you step through how you enter the t-pace in WKO+ and "overide" in WKO?  Do you then do a manual workout entry of the time,TSS,IF etc? 

    Thanks!

     

    Jim

  • David

    colon  zero two   :02 is 2 seconds

    2sec / 60 sec is about .04  which is 4 one hundreths of a minute

  • @ Jim, I don't put the t-pace into WKO. I put it into TrainingPealks, which uses it to calculate the TSS for swim worhouts. Then you can right-click on the swim workout in WKO and there will be a menu option to override values and input your own TSS (which you know, from Trainingpeaks). To get the swim workout into WKO in the first place you can create it manually, or upload from a device (I use a Garmin FR60, personally). Sorry if this is confusing, PM me with your phone # and I can explain in more detail if you like. Cheers, Matt.
  • FWIW, I am trying to go the "easier" route and track my recovery this year using RestWise (www.restwise.com). IOW, I have my plan and I am executing it. I know the numbers I want to see in all three sports (Currently two with no swim) so my season isn't so much about what to do but rather how am I absorbing what I am doing. Plus I am also wicked lazy and can't download / calc all that stuff... image
  • I have heard about Restwise but can't recall if there is a fee. P, is there a fee and if so, do you feel it has been worth the fee and effective or is it too soon to tell? I may have missed the discussion on this if there was one previously....

  • Sounds like a great plan Coach P. I'm new to triathlon, but have made great gains in the past 2 years focusing on recovery. I'm very anxious for you to share your learning with the rest of the team when the time comes!
  • I recommend using WKO+ for all of your tracking and logging needs. It's great for the bike, takes slightly more work for the run, and the swim you're fine to SWAG it.

    I don't care for TrainingPeaks as I think they are the leaders in the triathlon marketing/industrial complex that's wants you to think that paying a month fee for stuff is what makes you faster. IOW, you don't get faster because you can track 97 different metrics including your blood pressure and blood glucose level. WTF? You get faster because you have a good plan and you do the work. So TP and others are in the business of getting you to pay a monthly for the ability to do stuff that doesn't really make you any faster.

  •  @JEff and @Rob, there is a fee, info is here (http://restwise.com/buynow/online/) I don't pay as I am testing it out / giving them feedback, but I have found it to be pretty darn consistent for me. As rich noted, I have a plan and my goal is to execute that plan to the best of my ability. In order to do that, I need to schedule, execute and recover from workouts properly. And getting feedback on my recovery let's me do that.

    The chart below is for my OS; you can see how bad the initial loading was + the trip to IMFL almost killed me. image  

     

     

  • Coach P just curious if you are tracking TSB in WKO also and if so how the two, Recovery Score and TSB, correlate?
  • Hey Rich, the trainingpeaks folks are the same folks who make wko so you are supporting them regardless. And one thing they are NOT doing is supporting wko........
  • @P the link is broken but I can find it easily enough however, Dewey and I are both interested in the correlation between restwise and TSB in WKO+.

  • Posted By Bob McCallum on 27 Nov 2011 09:32 AM

    Does Garmin Connect have the updated bike power metrics yet?



    Anyone know the answer to that?  Bueller, Bueller, Bueller...

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