Next season planning- Big Run Injection
At the suggestion from Jan after reviewing IMAZ and mirrored by Al T., my plan is to do run focus through March that will end in a marathon. The marathon will be run at a locked in steady pace with the intent of being able to hold it to the end. Kind of a RR for the IM run. It won't be run so fast that I'll need a lot of recovery. I'll do maintenence cycling and swimming. I'm going to really work on form too, and higher cadence. I'll drop in a 12 week plan for IMCDA after the marathon. There are several short races I can target on the way to the marathon. Nutrition and weight loss will be another factor. I want to come in at no more than 145lbs. I've been there before and still don't look sick so I really could weigh even less. So the Body Bug is going on in the next couple days. Core work will be incorporated too. Gonna look at some bike positioning stuff too, but for me it's so NOT about the bike. Any comments/suggestions are welcome.
@Steve S. The 30 day run challenge sounds interesting.
Comments
I think this is not a very good idea. I just don't feel a marathon right before race prep is a good idea. You may run at a steady pace but the recovery will still be high. What will these maintenance bike workouts look like? Maybe this can be accomplished if the two weeks after the marathon are swim and bike focused but I just don't see the reasoning.
Just because Al is doing it doesn't seem like a reason to do this. Al is on another plane than just about all of us.
It seems to me that you have a lot going on here. Run focus. Minimal swim/bike. Work on form and increased cadence. Lose weight. To me, a good hard OS with focus on body comp and some swim technique work is the best way for you to do well at CDA. Why specifically are you choosing to do this in lieu of a proper OS?
Whoa! I'm not doing any stand alone marathons - ever again, since 2006 last time at Boston. What I told Kurt was his limiter is his running, and a focus there in the winter is a good idea. I think I specifically said to aim for a half marathon, but if that came out "marathon", I am sorry.
The first step to an improved IM marathon is to get FAST - hard work speed intervals, aiming for a 5 or preferably 10K race. Then learn how to pace the longer distance, and a half marathon provides that opportunity without the risk of injury or simple fatigue a marathon incurs. Fast, slow, it doesn't matter. 4 hours+ on the feet running just isn't worth it to me, if only because I always end up losing toenails.
I would endorse Tucker's view, and urge Kurt or anyone trying to get faster for an IM marathon to aim for a late winter/early spring half marathon as a goal race, swith a 10K along the way, to guide the run focus. A half marathon in early May would provide a perfect VDOT for pacing IM CDA in late June.
I will never do a full in a year I target an Ironman. Half Marys only! I told myself same thing you are saying this year and only ran Boston as a "training run" since my wife qualified and I was going to be physically present and I make a very poor spectator. I tried to keep bike OS workouts and add marathon hack and it nearly killed me. Then I was so fatigued after the race it tooks weeks to recover and cost me tremendously in cycling fitness and mental burnout! Was way behind doing Boston in April and IMC in late August. BArely recovered...
DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!
We feel it's a very bad idea to run a marathon during your triathlon season, as a tool to become a faster runner. Please read this.
I agree with Al and Tucker. Running a full marathon will just tear you up, and take 3-4 weeks of recovery at a time when you should be getting prepared for your IM. I encourage you to focus on getting faster in the shorter distances (5 and 10K) during Jan- March and then running one or two HALF marathon races, spaced out about 4 weeks apart, in April-May. The HALFs will give you a solid estimate of your endurance fitness without breaking you apart. You'll recover in 3-4 days, not 3-4 weeks, and will be able to continue with the rest of the EN plan. I would also encourage you to make sure you do all the intervals scheduled within the long training runs (those +2 hour runs) leading up to your IM. Doing these intervals when you are already tired after running an hour or more will give you both physical and mental strength to not slow down in the last 8 miles of the IM run. Just my $.02.
Kurt trust the below wisdom - it works. During my first IM, I trained under the EN philosophy having never run a marathon. I never ran more that 2.5 hours during the plan. I did do all the work. On race day, I followed the pacing and nutrition guidance and ran the entire marathon without stopping......................I can't say enough......enough said!
The Swim..I'm mostly around 1:20. I enjoy the swim, so it really doesn't tax me mentally. I'm always working on getting faster. Maybe also by better positioning and sighting I could take some time off the swim. Finding a tri suit that would get me through the bike would save a lot of time in T1 not changing into bike shorts.
Bike...my FTP now is ~210W I weigh 71K= 2.95 W/kg. Maybe I could get to 225-230 in the OS? That would put me ar ~ 3.2. One of my goals is to come in to CDL at 65 kg or less. That would put me in the 3.5 W/kg range. If I just lost weight and kept the same power I have now, I'd be ~3.2. Plus, the lower weight will help with the hills in the bike and will help everything in the run.
Run...my weakness is running. That is why I really want to do a run focus over the winter. My best 5K is ~23:45. Half 1:55. Marathon ~ 4:40. I like speed work, it's the running long that is hard for me. I did ok on the 2.5 hour long runs we did leading up to IMAZ. I did ok on the hour runs after the 6 hour rides we did for RR. I fell apart around mile 13 in IMAZ, maybe partly from going too hard on the bike according to my SRM file. I'd be thrilled to run a IM thon in under 5 hours. The intent of the stand alone marathon is to dial in a pace and run it, the same as I want do do in the IM. If I could run 11's I'd be under 5 hours and the recovery shouldn't take that long. The marathon I'm targeting is 3 weeks before dropping in the 12 week plan for IMCDL so the recovery time is there. Those are my thoughts anyway. I'm open to doing a half, but I can think of a number of people that did full marys that did really well in AZ. In any case it looks like I'll have to wait until after ~ 128 miles of SBR to find out if whatever training I did worked.
Lastly, in my best SGT Schultz voice " I know nothink"!I don't have years of triathlon and just two IM's. This is the vaule of EN, all the people offering experience, advice, and help. I really want to thank everyone that has answered and hopefully read my thoughts and offer their wisdom. thank you for helping me!
This doesn't answer your question about how not to fall apart at mile 13, and I'm interested to hear what the folks with more experience have to say
EN has this figured out. The elements are:
• a number of 2-2.5 hours runs while training, incorporating harder/faster elements than just slogging @ LRP. This helps you prepare for and simulate the tiredness in the muscles and general fatigue which happens in the second half of the IM Marathon
• Proper bike pacing per power and HR guidelines.
• SLOOOOOOOW first hour of the run, in part to encourage the absorption of sufficient fluids and calories to stave off dehydration and glycogen depletion as long as possible.
I admit to a similar experience as Patrick. In 06, I had my best Boston time in April, won my AG @ IM CDA in June, and had an IM Marathon PR in Kona in October. So, yeah, it can be done. BUT: I didin't get REALLY fast and steady at IM marathons until I stopped doing 3 hour training runs @ LRP and stopped doing stand-alone marathons. I'm talking a minute a mile faster. At age 58+.
One other thing - it doesn't matter how well you've trained or how well you pace and maintain nutirition - after mile 13 (or 15, or 18, or 22, or whatever), it ALWAYS feels far better to stop running or radically slow down than it does to continue. Blood blisters beneath you toenails, normal blisters on your feet, cramps in your calves, pain in your quads, mental fatigue, stomach upset, ertc, etc. That's why another EN element is so important:
• The One Thing - because it is indeed temporaily damaging to your body and basically just not worth it, you've got to have a really good reason to keep going at a steady pace after mile 1X when it starts to feel like you're running progressivley harder, but not getting any faster. It's never easy, not for Craig Alexander or Chrissie Wellington, not for anyone. And its far beyond simply "HTFU".
@Kurt- I may be one of those n=1 that had a near PR Marathon 6 six weeks out of IMAZ then had a big Ironman PR. But what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. Based on your Ironman splits I would say that your limiter is run durability. One way to increase your run durability is to increase your Vdot. For Example, let say your current Vdot allows you to run a, 11:30/mile pace for the Ironman run split and that 11:30/pace is 70%. Increasing your Vdot would allow you to run that same pace (11:30) at 65%. Conversely, running at 70% may produce an Ironman pace of 10:30/mile. So my suggestion would be to improve your Vdot to improve your run split, much the same way you would improve your bike split by improving your FTP. And you improve your Vdot by improving your 5K, 10K and 1/2 Mary time.
So..with my limited ironman experience let me give you a suggestion to improve your Ironman run split. This is my plan for winter/spring 2012.
Do the OS but add a longer run with intervals on the weekend, up to 2 hours. Basically just a normal OS with a half marathon hack.
....And yes Kurt I am doing a 30 day run challenge for the month of December, prior to the January OS. Gonna join me? I think Stephanie is in.