Which HIM would be a good primer for IMLP?

guy2600

I'm trying to plan out my season and trying to figure out which HIM to do before IMLP. I'm thinking of doing Mooseman which would be 7 weeks before IMLP (can't seem to get the web link or paste to work). Thoughts? Is there another I should be considering? I'd prefer something within driving distance of Massachusetts.

Robert Sabo

Rev 3 quassy

Brenda Ross

My hubby and Chris G did Timberman last year and thought it was a great race to do before IMLP. I think it was the same weekend in the schedule as a RR.

henrysacco

Another option is the Patriot Half. I did it this year before IMLP.

http://www.sunmultisportevents.com/Patriot_Half.htm

@Brenda, I believe Timberman is in August. You might have been thinking Mooseman.

scott dinhofer

i am doing mooseman which is the same weekend as the Rev3 and much hillier with one insane climb i am told. Looks like we will have a small contingent of ENers there, be great to have another!

 

i am planning on doing the OLY on saturday & HIM on Sunday, both as big training days & less as races....

GMAN 19030

Syracuse 70.3 is four weeks before LP next year. It now has a hilly bike and hilly run course.

jhbinsc

@Christopher. Make sure you know the reasons you want to do a HIM before LP. I'm skipping any HIM before IMCDA as it takes too long to recover afterwards and I don't want to really taper for it. It just kind of messes up my training for IM so close to the big game. See the wiki on doing HIM before IM also.

Steve West

@ Christopher - JB is right and I believe RnP will tell you the same thing.

Are you looking to be competitive in either IMLP or the HIM? If you answer 'yes', then no don't do the HIM.

Then again if it is all about having fun and doing cool stuff with your fitness, go for it. I did. Last year I participated in both Mooseman events (Oly and HIM) then 2 weeks later I went to Lake Placid and did a 4 day training camp on the course. In the end I finished better than expected at IMLP - Not because doing the HIM but because I had extreamly conservative expectations for my first IM.

Kevin Walter

I will be at Mooseman and doing IMLP to follow. Did this same combo back in 2008 and it seemed to go okay. Will "race" the Moose conservatively.

guy2600

My reasons for doing the HIM are to get more triathlon experience (currently have none), additional check on diet/pacing strategy and to have fun. I would treat it more as a training day and certainly wouldn't be racing it, my pace would be modest. I tried to look it up in the Wiki but couldn't find it. Sounds like there will be other EN people there so Mooseman it is - barring coach advice to do otherwise..

jhbinsc

@Christopher That sounds reasonable. My personal issues are that I can't pay for a HIM and not race it all out. Extra tri experience and modest pacing sounds like an admirable goal. Just stick to your plans and don't get caught up in the excitement and trash your legs for a week!

jhbinsc

Found this under Self Coaching DIY Guide but there is more out there.

Other Racing Considerations

Half Ironman as an Ironman Race Rehearsal

Waste of time and money. A bike pace that you expect to run a marathon after is, by definition, a very easy bike ride. Doing that pace for only 56 miles is likely the easiest, cheesiest ride you will ever have inside EN, ie, it’s a training and rehearsal waste of time: not hard enough to reap any training benefits, not long enough for you to learn anything useful from. Then add in the cost of the race, travel, potential lodging, the opportunity cost of missing your scheduled race-specific training…it’s just not worth it.

Short Course Races

Consider taking on some easy cycling or running on the back end of the race: finish the race and bike/run the course backwards. Get a ride for your gear and ride your bike home.

Coach Rich

This is one of those topics we see a lot this time of year, as people register for races next season.

Please see this video I made several years ago.

scott dinhofer

@ Jeff - i like what you had to say, VERY good stuff... i need to rethink this, espcially after i watch the video tonight!

Coach Rich

Bullet points:

• the pacing for HIM is very different from IM = not a good race sim
• IM pacing applied to an HIM race -- you're not out there long enough for any pacing mistakes to express themselves. Our 112/6 IM race rehearsal is a much better simulation than an HIM.
• An HIM punches ~10 day "accommodation hole" into your IM training -- you'll need to adjust about 5 days of your IM training schedule before the race, and another ~5 days on the back end of the race to recover from it before you resume your IM training schedule.
• The closer your HIM is schedule to your IM, the costly this 10 day hole becomes. The net is that the absolutely latest we want you to race an HIM is about 6-8wks before your IM. So, for example, early to mid May for IMCDA. Very early to mid June, at the latest, for IMLP. So, June 2-3 = good. June 9-10...meh. June 2x...not so good, too close.

scott dinhofer

so, question, i am looking at using a variety of races, HIMs as big training days, would anyone advocate against this plan>?

my first A event of the year is IMMT- August 19.

I am planning on
May 5 - Wildflower - HIM
May 13 - Gleason Race 5R/29B/5R/29B/5R (should i do the smaller 5R/29B/5R?) or the 112 mile IM TT? possibly followed by a 5 Mi Run?
June 3 - Moooseman - OLY& HIM back to back
mid June - 6 Peaks ride in Vermont, just a self guided 135 mile ride with 6 insane climbs (anyone game to join)
July 7 - 14 - Aspen Training Camp with Al Truscott

GMAN 19030

Rich's points are certainly 100% valid but the fun in all this is racing. I'd put the fun of racing above the concerns about how a HIM would affect your IM several weeks down the road. But that's my n=1. Don't do it too close and don't treat it as a rehearsal ("racing" at IM pace) .

In my opinion:
1. Racing is 1000x more fun than training.
2. It breaks up the monotony in training.
3. Racing beats rehearsing.

GMAN 19030

Posted By Rich Strauss on 14 Dec 2011 12:03 PM

Bullet points:

• the pacing for HIM is very different from IM = not a good race sim
• IM pacing applied to an HIM race -- you're not out there long enough for any pacing mistakes to express themselves. Our 112/6 IM race rehearsal is a much better simulation than an HIM.
• An HIM punches ~10 day "accommodation hole" into your IM training -- you'll need to adjust about 5 days of your IM training schedule before the race, and another ~5 days on the back end of the race to recover from it before you resume your IM training schedule.
• The closer your HIM is schedule to your IM, the costly this 10 day hole becomes. The net is that the absolutely latest we want you to race an HIM is about 6-8wks before your IM. So, for example, early to mid May for IMCDA. Very early to mid June, at the latest, for IMLP. So, June 2-3 = good. June 9-10...meh. June 2x...not so good, too close.

Rich,

 

What's your opinion on doing a HIM heading into a taper (3 weeks out of an IM)?  I'm not contemplating that or anything but if you're going into taper/rest mode -- what would be the downside?

Paul Scholz

I have to agree with Bob here. I only did 2-3 other races last year aside from my two HIM and frankly was a little depressed about not racing more.

In 12 I am going to do the CHS Try (70.3) on April 22nd with no taper and at the end of a BTW, just for the hell of it.That still gives me 9 weeks to IMCDA and I will likely do one other BTW 5 weeks out from CDA.

Brenda Ross

oops, meant Tinmman

Nate Parady

@Christopher, Are you attending the EN LP Camp. That might be a better use of your time and money. Would build the confidence, give you some experience, and you would have a blast all at the same time.
You are in Mass so its not THAT far for you. something to consider.

Kevin Walter

Just to play Devil's advocate. Some wicked fast dude I know ran a fast Boston Marathon in April, took 5th OA at Patriot Half Iron in June and then Kona qualified at Placid. To top it all off, he even PR'ed at Kona!

Coach Rich

Posted By Kevin Walter on 14 Dec 2011 04:07 PM

Just to play Devil's advocate. Some wicked fast dude I know ran a fast Boston Marathon in April, took 5th OA at Patriot Half Iron in June and then Kona qualified at Placid. To top it all off, he even PR'ed at Kona!

Yes, but when was Patriot? How many times had this clown raced IMLP?

Using CDA and LP as examples, over my years of coaching:

• Many, many athletes who've raced a HIM between about May 20th and early June have given me the feedback it significantly impacted their prep for IMCDA.
• Similar for LP: races after about June 15 begin to have a negative impact, or rather...
• The races can create a lot of friction with regards to recovery needed afterwards, the opportunity cost of lost IM-specific training, stuff like that, and this friction gets increasingly noisier the closer it is to your IM.

Race for fun...I get that, for sure. But if your IM is your A-race (it always is :-) and you have an HIM on the calendar within X weeks of that IM, I will say "doing that HIM will not necessarily help your IM and it could negatively impact it. As you move closer to X that risk of negative impact increases. But if you do decide to race an HIM, fookin' race it. Otherwise it's a suboptimal, expensive race rehearsal. "

jhbinsc

@Kevin What kind of genetic freak could do that???

guy2600

Ok, watched the video and understand where you're coming from. Here's my question then. What's the best way to gain experience with the swimming aspect of Ironman? I have experience doing rides both longer and more elavation gain than the IMLP course. I understand doing it within the context of an Ironman isn't the same, but I feel confident I'll be able to get that dialed in beforehand. The swim, however, is a big unknown to me. I have no idea how my body will respond after a swim like that and I'd really like to get some open water experience swimming with a sea of people like the mass start of IMLP. I haven't looked at the 20 week in season plan yet, so perhaps some of this is addressed in the plan. Keeping in mind I have no tri experience, what should I do in addition to the season plan to prepare? Sprints and an oly? I plan on joining the local open water swim team here in my area to get some experience that way. In regards to the EN IMLP rally, there isn't a swim portion, correct? Sounds like it would address the nutrition/pacing etc, so perhaps I'll sign up for that. I apologize if these questions are already addressed in the wiki but I've been short on time the last month and still tryin to work through the info. Thanks everyone for sharing, its been a great help!

tuckerm

@Christopher, guidance for the swim is to swim as fast as you can as long as you maintain form. Once you lose form, you slow down. Your best bet will be to get as many open water swims in, in training and in shorter races. They will not be as massive as IMLP, but it is the best you can do. And even in a HIM, the start will not be as massive.
So if I were you I'd:
Swim lots in OW
Swim lots in OW with other people
Learn to draft off other swimmers.
When doing open water swims with others, ask if you can do it in a bunch. Have them swim over top of you. Swim over top of them. Trust me it will happen. Get used to it.

The IMLP swim course is small and there will be lots of contact. Best to get yourself ready for that.

Oh and of course, if you are a super fast swimmer this doesn't really apply. Good luck.

Cary Blanco

FWIW - the swim in a wave start HIM is like second cousins with an IM mass start swim. A HIM wave swim is very similar to sprint or olympic wave starts. Don't let that be your primary reason for doing a HIM before IMLP.

[Deleted User]

Last year I did Rev 3 Quassy before IMLP and it worked out fine. But I viewed it as a workout and a chance to get in a fun race in the midst of so much training - not as a race rehearsal at all. I was concerned it would mess up training for Placid, but it worked out fine (had some season planning help from the coaches). I did the Lake Placid camp I think the following weekend, and that worked well too. I did one race rehearsal at the Lake Placid camp, and went back up to Placid for RR2. All good. Rev3 is a good race - I'm going back in 2012.

Coach Patrick

Be sure to check out the Self Coaching Guide in the wiki, especially the part on Inserting Races as I added a new chart with video on how to pick the right time to do a HIM for your next IM!

http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/Wiki/tabid/108/Default.aspx?topic=SelfCoaching+Manual++DIY+Guide+for+Adjusting+You

mgraffeo

Chris, I raced tri's for 4 years before doing my first IM, probably >20 races, and nothing I did prepared me for the swim in a mass start IM. Kinda just has to be experienced. There's no HIM that will get you even close.

Maybe a few MMA classes?

Rob

Posted By Tucker McKeever on 14 Dec 2011 09:46 PM

@Christopher, guidance for the swim is to swim as fast as you can as long as you maintain form. Once you lose form, you slow down. Your best bet will be to get as many open water swims in, in training and in shorter races. They will not be as massive as IMLP, but it is the best you can do. And even in a HIM, the start will not be as massive.

So if I were you I'd:

Swim lots in OW

Swim lots in OW with other people

Learn to draft off other swimmers.

When doing open water swims with others, ask if you can do it in a bunch. Have them swim over top of you. Swim over top of them. Trust me it will happen. Get used to it.



The IMLP swim course is small and there will be lots of contact. Best to get yourself ready for that.



Oh and of course, if you are a super fast swimmer this doesn't really apply. Good luck.

x2... Climbing around other people is the best way to get used to a mass start & the swim.  Any tri clubs do OWS in your area?