Interesting fatigue pattern on bike

William Jenks

Something I've been noticing with my bike workouts the last couple weeks or so...

The FTP workouts are suitably hard - like most people I am sure - finishing the "work" interval is very challenching and you kind of wonder if you're going to make it at all.  :-)

Here's the funny part.  10 minutes after I'm done, I feel like "That wasn't really so hard: I could have done more" in the sense that the legs feel fairly fresh again.

But then 1-2 hours later, I'm feeling major fatigue and that familiar "I'm trashed ache", which only goes away like the next day or so.

I guess it's not strange to have the "I'm trashed ache", but the short window of feeling like I could have gone more more more is something I really don't remember.  Anybody else recognize this?

Cheers,

William

 

robin sarner

Yes quite similar thing going on with me.     And especially the fatigue later in the day.    I assume due to starting out at higher ftp this year.   And purposefully not adjusting for indoor ftp.    So my indoor workouts may have the intervals at 1.1 IF.            But the feeling reved up by the end of the workout?   I assume that is a good thing for us.

Al Truscott

Wm - A pattern I recognize well. I figure the first is endorphins, and the second is the work you are doing internally to replenish your depleted water and glycogen. Assuming you've hydrated and carb'd up in the hour or two after the workout, then a lot of work has to happen at the cellular level to convert sugars to longer chain glycogen and move water around the various spaces jn your body. I know I've had a good OS workout when I feel like taking a nap two hours after I finish.

coop6

I guess I've noticed the same thing. There are times during my ride that I am certain I am not going to get out of my basement after unless I crawl up the stairs, but once it's done I feel fine. I almost always wish for a nap after

Jeff Sullivan

@ wm +3 from a 2nd yr EN'r - tough to explain especially during these longer intervals where i'm dying near the end - last yr i would slow walk upstairs - feed and hit the lazy boy for a couple hrs - totally trashed - this yr i can actually function after wko but the "buzzing" feeling is omnipresent - seems like morn after takes awhile to shake the fatigue

jhbinsc

Like Al, I also feel the endorphin kick despite my level of fatigue but afterwards...oh boy. Same perception here. +4

Spokane_Al

I find that I experience similar effects after completing a run and/or a OS bike ride. After that burst of feeling great, the later fatigue effect will find me snoring through a short nap on my recliner.

William Jenks

Thanks all.

I have to find the control on my browser to either turn on or turn off the auto-correct on my typing, though! "Challenching"? Ouch.

@Robin - about your 1.1 FTP remark:

Something I've done the last couple of years is start my OS with enough gap from the end of my previous season that I've had time to do 3-4 weeks of "OS Lite". If you look in the Wiki, there's a discussion somewhere about Pre-OS sessions. My time is less structured than that, but it does include real "work". For me, the point of that is to bring the FTP and VDOT back from the dead and up to a more realistic "almost in shape" levels. The good news from doing this is that the Week 1 VDOT and FTP tests are realistic and your first 4-5 weeks are at paces they should be. The bad news is that you don't get to quote the same large gains as some people. :-) My view, though, is that I'd rather start at near the right place and put my OS to work trying to really build something new, as opposed to using more of it just to get going again.

robin sarner

William. 

That is actually pretty much what I did pre- and starting the OS.

Thanks for confirming that this may be reasonable. 

But yes the stats will not look as impressive.

William Jenks

Yeah, no doubt that 10% is in a reasonable range in the first 8 weeks.



The widely cited "normal" FTP gain is about 15%. To be fair, this includes a lot of people on their first or second season at it. (I am only in my 2nd OS, too, for what it's worth.) But it seems clear that everyone has a potential that as they near, real year-to-year gains (not just getting back in shape) get harder and harder. But no doubt that doing an OS like ours is a great way to do it.

astasic

 Here is the question, if this is your second OS, say, you are starting at the same FTP level as you did last OS, doing the same OS, where do you think you are going to end up with your FTP repeating the same stimulus? I am curious. Thanks.

William Jenks

That's above may pay grade. But it's exactly what the "heads we win..." thread and spreadsheet are for. It asks some background questions and then RnP give their opinions on goals for you through the OS. (they include things like experience, how many years in OS, etc.) Mine came out very close last year, but that was my first OS.

But I would encourage you to give it a go...should have thought of it earlier!

Coach Patrick

@AT, I'll bite. I find that in Y2+ OSes that it takes me about 8 weeks to get from low bike fitness to last years fitness. At least this has happened for me in the last 3 OS runs, tomorrow will confirm/deny it. This gives you 12 weeks to continue moving forward. That said, I personally have had issue moving much beyond that point. I do the VO2 part for the OS...but only finish that with pretty much zero gains, and then am too fatigued to get back to the Threshold work. This is why I have a modified OS plan this winter to see if I can keep going up without such a large VO2 "break". I am currently doing 2 x FTP workouts (Tues/Sat) and replacing the Thurs with VO2 only. So my threshold is coming up a little more slowly right now, but that said my running is off the charts good....so hard to complain!

William Jenks

Re Coach P's remarks:

I'm testing Wednesday (assuming this darn virus doesn't slow me down more). I'll be interested to see.

I'll use real numbers, just because it's easier...even though they're not that excitingly huge....

Last OS, I did my last test right around 255 W. All workouts on the tri bike, and as much as I could bear down in the bars. But in reality, I found it much harder to really do all the trainer stuff really glued down in the bars all the time than I'd like to admit, and I probably cheated too much sitting up, particularly starting with the VO2 stuff. Anyway, when I went outdoors, I immediately tested at 230ish, and then stayed there all summer, only drifting up a few W. (I DID have big gains in the longer stuff, i.e., holding the 2-6 hour power at what it was supposed to be...but that's how it's supposed to work, right?)

So this year, I said to myself that if I'm going to take a 10% hit going outside, I might as well take it from the biggest number I can get to ... so I've been doing my wkos on the old Trek 1400 road bike with only 7 gears in the back. :-) As mentioned above, I did an informal "hard and short, lots of biking" October, and tested 257 W on 10/31. I think that number is probably about my "last year's fitness" but on the different bike. This is one reason I do not expect huge gains.

I'm pretty confident the real number is now in the 260s, but how deep into them we will see. I know that 240 W has NEVER felt this easy before.

I will not regret where I end up because I've made a carefully thought out choice to go this way and see what happens... but if I could get to 280 on the road bike, I would consider that HUGE. That would be 4 W/kg even when I'm fat. :-)

But ultimately, of course, what I want is the TT bike number... I will be very happy at 250 and thrilled if I can get to 260...that would be very close to 4.0 at race weight.

As another experiment, I went from 172.5 to 165 mm cranks on the TT bike (and adjusted the saddle accordingly) in order to reduce the acuteness of hip closure at the top of the revolution. My basis for doing this is the theory that I am a little too closed in my current position, which caused my indoor--->outdoor drop. I have kept the 172.5s though, in case that turns into a disaster for some reason.

astasic

 @William and Coach, that is exactly how my 2011 Jan OS looked like. I was just never able to return to FTP after VO2max. Further, as I got outside, I struggled even worse. Never before could my indoor power go above outdoor power, this season, sure was the case. Week 8 test gave my highest ever indoor and outdoor, after which I have not seen those numbers again. I came somewhat close in Sept for Branson race.

I am really really puzzled by this indoor/outdoor descrapancy when indoor goes higher than outdoor as in William's and my case.

Anyway, thank you guys for nice responses. I am really looking to brake the plateau and reach 290-295W this winter, I don't care where indoor or outdoor, somewhere, it is time. That puts me at 4.20W/kg-4.27W/kg. I sure am coming from my basement of 260W or worse. Last year I tested on 12/31 at 262W.

William Jenks

I am not so worried about the indoor/outdoor thing. It is what it is. There are some people who do better outdoors. I think I do better indoors in part because there is no terran, no nothing besides me and the meter. Other people may find that mentally harder, rather than mentally easier. (I know we all think a 5 hour ride is a lot easier outdoors, for example.) However, I am betting that some part of the discrepancy for me is due to position, so I took the action I described.

If you think the VO2 was too much last year, why not take Patrick's approach. I bet a lot of it depends on how close we all are to our potentials at the FTP and VO2 levels and a certain amount of stuff like Fast twitch/slow twitch muscle fibers.

astasic

 Absolute yes to Patrick's approach. VO2max 3x week or VO2max after 2x20min on the weekends isn't for me. Got that figured out the hard way last OS. I can handle 2 VO2max workouts on a serious scale 2x week and still recover to do quality running, 3 VO2 workouts, something cracks somewhere. 

I also add from the start, every 4th week gets first 4 days recovery work only, Friday-Sunday is a return to work again. More recovery for me works better. Also,every Monday becomes the couch day.

jhbinsc

@Aleksandar I like the recovery portion every 4th Mon-Thur but what do you do that Friday during OS? I have that off until I start swimming a bit next year. I also take every Monday off even during IM training as I feel I need a day off to recover at my age, plus Mondays absolutely suck at work.

Coach Patrick

Good stuff here...great to hear I am not the only outlier. I am forging ahead into week nine making some stuff up...so we'll see. I will say that my 36 hour recovery plan is ridiculously awesome...kinda cheating in some way. Totally recommended if you can quit your job.

jhbinsc

Posted By Patrick McCrann on 19 Dec 2011 03:25 PM

@AT, I'll bite. I find that in Y2+ OSes that it takes me about 8 weeks to get from low bike fitness to last years fitness. At least this has happened for me in the last 3 OS runs, tomorrow will confirm/deny it. This gives you 12 weeks to continue moving forward. That said, I personally have had issue moving much beyond that point. I do the VO2 part for the OS...but only finish that with pretty much zero gains, and then am too fatigued to get back to the Threshold work. This is why I have a modified OS plan this winter to see if I can keep going up without such a large VO2 "break". I am currently doing 2 x FTP workouts (Tues/Sat) and replacing the Thurs with VO2 only. So my threshold is coming up a little more slowly right now, but that said my running is off the charts good....so hard to complain!

 

So you feel your running is improving more than the bike fitness b/c you are doing VO2 work on bike on Thursdays rather than FTP work? Is that correct? I have read your other posts re: your lower ceiling vs roof and wonder if you are doing this all OS or just for a certain block? Are you feeling fresher for running? How much VO2 time "on" are you up to?