Should you ride 80-85rpms on your trainer this winter?
I was talking to Lisbeth Kenyon (yes, that one, the world champ, etc) the other day and she was complaining how she had to get all the ladies who spin in their class to drop their cadence down from 100+ rpms to below 90. I was asking why, and she said that if they spin all winter at like 95-100 rpms when they get outside on the open road they can't really push a big gear...or that they aren't as strong.
I thought it was food for thought...I personally ride my trainer at 85 rpms....I can ride it one gear easier at like 95 rpms, but I prefer to push myself a bit with that next gear down.
Just something to think about, and of course, I'd love your feedback!
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This is a great topic for discussion; I had a similar/related question. I tend to ride at higher cadence and higher gear...but was wondering if; when spinning/riding on the trainer, it made a difference wheter you got into your training Zone (say Z4) via high gear/high cadence v lower gear/lower cadence?????
any thoughts on this is really helpful.
I think Paul is right on this one. I am a lot like Coach P in that I tend to migrate toward an 85 rpm cadence, but, at the end of the day, how I deliver those watts and hit that interval, does not matter much to me whether I am at 85 or 100 rpm, I'm just trying to deliver a targeted amount of power to the back wheel.....................
Coach P,
I try to have some variation in the rpms. I am very comfortable in the 85-95 but have found this OS that I have been using the higher cadence more 90-100. So recently I have been forcing myself to gear down for the last half of the interval. When I'm feeling good I'll even gear down twice and push in the lower 80's.
I find that the higher cadence work is easier on the legs and the HR was getting extra work initially. After a few weeks of the OS when I gear down the HR drops a few beats for a couple/few minutes then migrates back up if I hold similar watts. I utlize this to get a break within the interval especilaly when it's starting to get tough.
I just did a bigger gear 2X15' last night an feel that it worked my legs more. Of course I'm without my power meter right now so I probably was cranking some extra watts as well. I think the lower cadence on the trainer helps simulate what you will get on hill work and does help build some functional bike strength in the legs. Of course this is all ancedotal.
Gordon
On another point, we all know going to the mountains to climb makes us strong. The Blue Ridge Parkway Camp and other climbing Centuries has shown me that many times. Most of the climbing done there is not done at 85+ rpms, but more like 60-75. So, I believe that if your knees are OK with the lower RPMs, that you will benefit from some lower cadence work. I like variety. To me, if I had to sit on 85 for a 2x20, I'd hate it.
Having said that I think its common belief that 80-100 is the sweet spot and 100+ seems like a bit much. It certainly makes sense to train at similar RPM's inside that you actually ride outside in the real world. I do vary my interval RPM's between 85 and-high 90's for change of pace more than anything(oh and like 50 for recoveries LOL) . Lower RPM's do feel harder I think.
Looked up a bunch of rides from last year. Lowest RPM was Mooseman HIM @84 , highest RPM was 23 min TT hill climb @104 , but the meat and potatoes for me was 90-95 average. IMFL was 90rpm.
An article here on the issue:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/the-power-of-quadrant-analysis,-by-hunter-allen.aspx
Tim- agree...but what if you are talking HR zones...I can get into Zone4 by standing and cranking a big gear...or high cadence/higher gear...my thinking is that big gear work has some strenght buidling advantage...but either way is effective for Threshold improvment?? I had similar at Mooseman too!
+1 Pauls' comment...I think ya' gotta have both in the training mix...ie. I think I could stand to do more low gear/low rpm work...to build strength...
I thought a lot about this last year. I was doing a lot of training indoors but was facing IMC with two mountain passes and the rollers known as the "seven bitches". I knew I wouldn’t exactly be “spinning” all day. I ended up breaking down almost every interval into quarters. Obviously to a certain degree we are almost always “between gears” but in general I’d do 50% at 90, 30% at 80 and 20% at 100. It helped keep my mind busy (lots of math!) and when I hit the course I did just fine on the uphill. Also, as it turns out I was also able to really keep the heat on downhill as well. Ended up with a VI of 1.03. FWIW....
Jenn I think you make a very good point about the cadence helping your ability to smooth out the VI.
Gordon
Coach's question: "Should you ride 80-90 rpm on the trainer in the winter?", asked in the context of women in spin class who go 95+ rpm inside, then can't seem to ride well on the road. To re-phrase: Does the trainer provide any help in learning how to ride a bike outside?
My answer: no. The trainer will build cycling strength (wattage), but as to handling turns, stops, hills, wind, other riders, etc., there's no there there. It strikes me the problem is the women don't have sufficient outdoor cycling experience to have developed the necessary anticipation and shifting skills. Riding a trainer won't provide that, no matter what cadence one goes.
Thinking about how to teach adults to ride on the road, with all the shifting and speed changes required, while worrying about traffic and other non-bike issues, I concluded the best way would be to take them out on rollng gravel roads on a mountain bike, then graduate to single track. That's the fastest way to learn how to anticipate grade changes, curves, when and how much to shift, when to stand, etc. Wanna learn how to be a better road biker? Get dirty. Remember where people like Cadel Evans came from. Maybe Andy Schleck should spend a season mountain biking.
As to what the "correct" cadence is, my answer: the one that gets you most efficiently through the terrain challenges you encounter. Unless you're on a flat, straight road, cadence will be constantly changing. So as Paul said, you have to learn how to use all cadences.
Sounds like a good opportunity to do a crucible test. Find a few test subjects willing to do a block of high cadence training and a group wiling to do a low cadence block and see if there are differences in the gains over a time frame. Would need to sort out a lot of variables in setting this thing up though?
Also, I worked in a gym as a spin instructor for several years, and there is a great difference in pedaling a true "spin" bike at a given rpms as compared to our "bike on a trainer." Those spin bikes, with their heavy flywheels, require much less muscular force to maintain the cadence compared to our resistance units. We were taught to keep cadences in the 90-100 range by keeping the resistance very low. Spinning was introduced as a cardio workout and it makes sense that a higher rpm was the target. It makes total sense to me that at those cadences the ladies she was referring to would struggle on the road due to varrying terrain, wind, and lack of the flywheel effect. We tend to use our trainer sessions to build outside riding fitness which requires cardio and muscular fitness.
riding on the trainer is different from being outdoors, as the weight of the flywheel/resistance makes for a different resistance curve across the pedal stroke. In my experience, it's easier to 'game' watts on the trainer by overrecruiting quad muscles, since there's more to push against there than there is on the road. I'm working this winter to keep the indoor riding more like outdoor riding, not overinvolving quads which become useless outdoors, so that I can hopefully continue to strengthen up the glutes and actually see gains in bike strength from that focus.
So, what does that mean for cadence? folks who have a really easy time spinning high cadence indoors probably have good hip flexor strength (unlike me), and don't recruit quads to be used when they shouldn't. So, for them, dropping down to 85rpm is essentially "big gear strength" work, and probably valuable, as they'll learn to really push with the glutes more and develop more power as a result. For someone like me, who's self-selected cadence tends to be around 85, and doesn't have that sort of hip flexor strength and breaks out in a vigorous sweat at 100 rpm at 160 watts, I could probably benefit from some additional HIGH cadence time (unlike Lis' clients) to balance out the whole pedal stroke.
I guess that that's a long-winded way of saying what Paul and Al said. It seems important to understand from where you're coming before drawing up a map to get where you want to go.
My thoughts and experiences with cadence & trainers...
My sweet spot outdoor cadence is 85-87. I just intinctively gravitate to that cadence without even paying attention to it - no matter the gearing, wind, elevation, whatever. I'm more of a masher/power rider than a spinner. I can't ride a cadence of 95-100 like some people. Spinning like that wears me out.
With my bike on my trainer, I could never find the right gearing to get into my 85-87 sweetspot. One gear would have me spinning at say 92 rpm and the gear down would have me at 80 rpm for the same given power. I just didn't have a sweet spot given the gearing of the bike and the resistance curve of the trainer. I just rode around 80 and it wasn't that big a deal. I find that cadence is lower indoors vs outdoors for a similar RPE - kind of like we find with power indoors vs outdoors..
Now that I have moved away from the bike+trainer to a dedicated indoor cycle, I'm able to manually adjust the resistance so I can ride 85 rpm and whatever power.
I'm a big believer in varying your cadence in training BUT I race and do intervals at 90-92 cadence unless it is super hilly since that's my targeted run cadence! I also use a metronome set at 184 for most of my training runs.
When I first started riding my preferred bike cadence was 70-80 and run cadence was about 150-160 and I had to teach myself to spin to save legs for run off bike and to stride faster to reduce injuries/improve form and efficiency.
I was thinking along those lines as well......
@Bob and SHaughn I have 90+ cadence but that's only b/c I spin out on my 53/11
I don't target any specific cadence indoor or out. My comfort zone is typically 97-102ish...a few rpm lower on the trainer for some reason. I do make a point of going a gear up/down for 60sec at a time during some of my longer FT intervals on the trainer to give me something to focus on aside from the burn. Something I think is important for triasthletes to keep in mind is that optimal running turn-over is tyically 180-200fspm. My natural run cadence is 200fspm and I think it is a benefit that my cycling cadence matches very closely. After spending hours on the bike turning the cranks it can be rude awakening to your legs if you want to shift from 85rpm to 95-100 on the run.
So P - did you ask Lisbeth why "pushing big gears" matters? I can't see why the size of the gear matters. I don't need a 54-11 to put down my power but if you are at the level of a pro you might need the larger gears to keep from spinning out at the top end. But again, that's a matter of putting out 400w, not the size of the gear.