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Run pace 2012. Speed vs injury risk

 Hey crushing ' boomers-----your opinions would be appreciated on the following....I plan to do imwi and imaz.  I want to get to where I can run 8 min miles pretty much forever durin training sessions.  My goal in a ironman marathon is 4 hr to 4:15.  For the vdot tests and such, I can do 6:00 to 6:30 pace if needed.  Problem at that pace, and even to 7 min pace, I fel like increase my chance of injury.  I always hope to get thru any year with no lower legs issues..calf and Achilles.  My idea is to train at max speed of 8 min pace all year.  I do not see how these occasional all out speed sessions do me much good at this point..especially the possibility of the injury factor potentially coming into play.  Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Brian

Comments

  • Brian - There are two questions here that I see. One - can I expect to be able to run a marathon at a steady 9:15-9:30 pace in an Ironman if all I do is train at an 8 minute pace? And two, what is the value, if any, of running at a faster/harder pace in training, compared to the risk of injury? I'm assuming you're over 50, and have some years of experience running and training.

    Starting with the value of faster (and variable) paces in training. Once we get past our 20's, we will start to lose muscle mass. It used to be felt this was inevitable, due to decreasing testosterone and HGH levels as we age. But studies over the past decade or 2 show that, even into our 60s and 70s, we can maintain our muscle mass to a remarkable degree by applying enough stress to the muscle. Most of the studies use weight training, and show that high repetition/low weight does not do the trick. Low reps/high weight (or the equivilent thereof) once or twice a week is enough to maintain the muscle's full capacity for growth. There's a lot more to this I will leave out for now; the main point is: use it or lose it.

    Running at a lower pace all the time does not stress the muscle enough to prevent the loss of some motor-neuron connections; some muscle bundles are only called upon for extreme work, and if not stimulated they become dormant, and unavailable for use in a high stress situation, like 10 hours into an Ironman when all the other muscle fibers are screaming "Uncle!"

    The good news, it doesn't take much too wake them up and get them ready for use when needed. It's possible that doing 10 "strides" at the end of every running session would be enough to keep the reserves battle ready. But neglecting them entirely would leave you high and dry on race day.

    So, can you run a steady pace on race day without having prepped yourself with a minimum amount of "speed work"? I would say no, that when the going gets tough in the second half of the marathon, you will almost inevitably slow down as your diminshed supply of muscle fibers start one-by-one giving up the ghost. You'll know that's happening because you will "cramp" or seize up. I say "almost", because by superhuman will, you might be able to drive yourself on, but that would also run the risk of injury asking untrained muscle to work harder than it is prepared to.

    How to avoid injury during training? Three things to consider. First, you've got LOTS of time to gear up for your Sept and Nov races. Given your history of injury, I see no value in jumping right into the OS IP and VO2 max work full bore. Rather, Jan-March, work on LRP, which would be 8:40-8:55 for an expected 4-4:15 marathon, and start putting in some time, not much at first, at 7:30-7:10 pace, call it "tempo". Work for 10-15 minutes a week up to max of 40 minutes a week at this speed. It doesn't have to be consecutive, it can be in intervals. And a couple times a week, do 5-10 strides at the end of a your shorter runs. Also, don't run on consecutive days. Then, come April, start gingerly adding once a week some paces at 6:45-7:10. Start at 6-8 minutes total work time, and add 1-2 minutes a week through June to a max of 16-18 minutes. Intervals can be 5-8 minutes long, separated by 2-4 minutes of active recovery.

    3-4 days a week of running, 25-30 miles/week max is enough to get you ready.

    Then, come July, you'll be ready for the EN long runs which incorporate intervals at a half marathon pace (7-7:30 for you), and end with 15-30 minutes at marathon pace (7:40-8:20). The variation in pace, and the slightly harder pace at the start, will maintain the muscle bundles newly trained from the small amount of speed work you've been doing.

    This is basically the plan I intend to follow this year, getting ready for my IM smack between your two. I'm getting leery of increased suscpetibility to injury, but I know the value of putting some level of stress and variation in speed into my training to get maximum benefit.

  • There is no doubt that introducing speed into a running program greatly increases the potential for injury...more so than any other part of triathlon training. That said, I agree with most of Al's approach which incorporates variety into the program -- meaning hard days and easy days. I've run my last 4 IM marathons (over the age of 50) between 3:57 and 4:07 ... with lots of slow running between 8:45 and 9:00 pace; and some occassional (but not very much) fast running. I'm not happy with those results. but I came to triathlon specifically because of running injuries. To compensate for my lack of intensity I've done a lot more running volume than EN calls for. I'm going to try more quality and less volume for the upcoming spring and summer, then return to volume as I approach IM Cozumel....partly because volume in the Tampa summer is just too hard. There is no single path to your target, but you need the quality if you don't want to go the volume approach (which has its own injury potential).
  • Like Paul I too came to triathlon after sustaining running injuries, resulting from too high mileage.  I use to run 5-6 days a week totaling 35-40 miles per week.  I always was fighting nagging injuries - PF, sore hamstrings, aching knees, sore achillies - so I was afraid to hit the gas pedal and run really fast (sub 7:00 pace) thinking I'd make the injuries worse .   I finally strained my hip flexor racing a 15K just 3 weeks after the Chicago marathon.  I had to take a break and my brother JT talked me into getting in the pool as part of the rehab.  Anyway, when I got better I decided to cut down my run frequency to every other day and add in biking and swimming.  A funny thing happen - no more nagging running injuries AND I was able to run faster again with much less fear of injury.  Last year I followed the EN plan in preparation for IMCDA almost to the letter (I did cut out the Friday run since I didn't want to run the day after the long run), and felt really prepared.  I did the threshold intervals at 6:50 pace, the HMP intervals @ 7:05, and the MP @ 7:20, and was able to avoid injury.  BUT I never did more intervals than the plan called - if it said 10' @ HMP, I did 10' and no more. I think my body and mind responded well to the variety of paces and distances in each of the workouts.  It wasn't just slug out mile after mile at the same pace like I use to do pre-triathlon days.

    There is no doubt that speed increases the injury risk IF you don't get the proper amount of recovery between runs.  Too much volume also has the same risk IF don't get the proper recovery.  I think that the beauty of the EN plan is that quality workouts + adequate rest = fast run fitness.  Net, I think it is fine balance between speed and volume that each of us must find that works best for us.  Listen carefully to those legs.

    I also totally agree with Al about the compensating effects of weight and speed training on muscle mass as we age.  I'll be following the same approach training for IMWI this year.

    Brian - not sure I answered your question, but I did want to share my perspective.  Hope this helps.

  • Great answers for Brian...thanks Team!
  • Thanks for your thoughts. It is great to hear of opinions and strategies of athletes of the same age, as common sense seems to indicate that our programs need to be occasionally tweaked abit from our 30 yr old brothers. I appreciate all the time it took to respond so thoughtfully! Have a great New Year!
  • As follow up to your comments, this is what I am trying and liking. 1st thing I am doing on run days is to jump on the bike trainer for 10 minutes or so to warm the legs up (wish i had thought of this years ago, feels great once I start running) doing 3 miles or so at a 8-8:30 pace, then i am doing 4 (and will be increasing) 1/4 mile intervals, followed by a 1 mile cool down at 9 min pace. Then at the end jumping back on the bike trainer for 5 minutes of cooldown spinning. Liking the variety, and these older legs are feeling pretty good with this little mix.

  • Right. Mixing it up is the key. I like the idea of using the trainer for warm up and cool down. I may do that when I start back running next month (I'm healing my plantar fascia now.)

  • Sounds like a nice adaptation.  A stress-free way to warm up and cool down.  Nice tempo run in the middle then some speed intervals at the end of the run.  I may give this a try too.

  • this is interesting as while I was doing the SC last month, I found the HMP/TP run on Tuesdays much easier to do as a brick compared to a stand alone run later in the day.
  • Hi Boomers,

    update on running for old guys..like me..am doing the JAN OS plan...for running i am always trying to get in 10 min of spinning to warm up..did 4 X1 mile repeats today at 7:00, 6:40,6:20, and 6:00 with around 90 sec. between each..then cool down on bike..feeling ok at this point in time..stretching alot, especially through the hips..PLUS I have been on the fence about power in the bike for along time......, but i have been training with trainroad.com and their virtual power....i think i am becoming hooked on power!

    Hope everybody's training, and bodies are doing and feeling great!!

    Brian

  • Great job Brian. I think I need to try the bike warm-up...especially when I run in the morning.
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