Yet another indoor/outdoor FTP difference thread
OK, maybe I think too much about this.
But another thought crossed my mind during my last indoor FTP test. Mind you, this was about at minute 8 or 10, before there were No Thoughts Allowed. :-)
I observed (and have since considered more and observed again) that I have difficulty keeping up my "best effort" FTP-type power unless I am pretty much staring at the meter. I have a TV in my trainer room, and if I actually watch it (rather than listen and glance), my power usually drifts down a bit. I attribute this simply to needing (almost) full concentration to really squeeze that last bit out. The Truth Meter staring you in the face is very powerful.
I have begun to wonder if this is at least a primary reason that I am one of the few of Those Guys whose indoor numbers are better than their outdoor numbers, i.e., when riding outdoors, you have to actually look at the road, steer a bit, make sure not to get run over by that F150 coming up behind you, etc.
I have less difficulty matching the short, very hard numbers outdoors compared to indoors. My logic says this is reasonable: on a 0-3 minute high power interval outside, you basically don't think about anything but the effort; if a stop sign or other road feature comes, you just call that interval short and move on to the next one.
But there's no avoiding exogenous input for 20 minutes on the road most of the time.
If so, maybe there's hope for us Those Guys, in learning how to bear down just a little harder outdoors. That said, I'm not sure I want to advocate doing it by gluing the eyes to the meter while riding. :-)
Comments
You just *think* you think too much, Wm.
I fit into the category of "same outside as inside". Here're my thoughts on how best to translate indoor effort to outdoors:
Same bike, fan inside. Outdoor course with minimum of human and environmental distractions. I have 7 miles of 10 foot wide shoulder, basically flat, no lights or stop signs, one turn, minimal traffic, smooth asphalt. Indoors or out, I concentrate not on the numbers on my meter, but on the sensations in my body: breathing effort, tenseness in my shoudlers (I try to relax those), low head, perceived cadence rate, developing fatigue in my thighs, etc, etc.
IOW, since intense concentration IS required for a max effort, I'd rather be concentrating on the things which actually make a difference in the end result - what I'm doing with my physical and metnal resources.
Any thoughts that I may be an idiot for trying that?
Interesting!
I wish I could say same power inside as out. I'll have to add the powertap to the computrainer one of these days to get an idea what the difference between the two numbers actually is/are. I'll also have to compare my Zipp powertap, to my training powertap, to my computrainer...
Also, until just very recently, I've been training only on road bike. Now I have tri bike geometry and there's yet a different power number to add to the mix. When on tri bike, my hamstrings seem to get more of a workout. Also, the tri bike is a loaner until mine comes in.(long story/long order process) I'll have to see what the difference of compact gearing is compared to standard 53/39 gearing.
Sometimes I wish I didn't live in Michigan so that I can do more of my testing outside!
@ Stephen - that;'s a good way to do the intervals, but for testing, you may leave something on the table. There are studies showing people can increase their effort level by 2-3% just by competing against others. Maybe try racing the CT metal man at 5 watts over your target power? That way, you have a known fixed power level you are chasing (or leading), without being locked on by the CT on one power level. Just don't draft behind him too long!
Personally, I set the CT in "SpinScan" and use my Joule as the recorder for my power tests. But maybe this OS (I start in mid-Feb), I'll give the MetalMan a try.
@Stephen... wish I could help, but I have no experience with a computrainer. But it doesn't sound like a bad idea. (Wow...wish I could realistically look at those numbers though! I just hit 3.9 W/kg, but a 60 VDOT is just not in the cards I don't think!)
The trade off in power vs. fit on the TT bike is delicate. If you start from the TT bike fit at which your power is maximized, you'll find that there are changes that can make you more aero. For example most people can get lower in front and still be relatively comfortable and powerful.
Some people will say that if you have an ideal fit, the two FTPs should be the same. I tend to think that's an exaggeration, but you certainly want to minimize the difference through a good fit. However, the other way to look at it is that if you are going at a little lower power, but more aero, that is in a sense "free speed" on your run. In other words, if you make your TT bike more aero at a slight power output expense, but are going the same speed that you were before, you are getting to the end of your ride having spent somewhat fewer kJ...which remain in the tank for your run.
From the looks of your numbers and your questions, you're an experienced rider - probably more so than me - and you'll figure it all out. :-)
As I read through your first post I thought "that's me!". My indoor and outdoor are about the same.
When I test inside, I'll look at my power several times during the first interval, and the frequency increases through the test, with me just staring consistently at it for the last 5 minutes trying to will it up another watt or two. The TV is on in the background, but I barely know what's going on in the show that's playing.
For outdoor testing, I usually do a local TT that takes around 40min to complete. I call it good enough for a test. There is a little motivation to try harder since it's a race, but it's not like someone is right next to you pushing you. My main source of external motivation is how long I can hold off the guys that started 1, 2, 5 minutes behind me. My legs are dead when I'm done, but it might be more from the extra effort I put in when I could see the finish line coming up.
When I first started doing triathlons, a local cycling team (Two Bee Cycling) had a TON of races in the Iowa City area....30-40 races, with most of them being the weekly time trial series. It alternated between a hilly course and a flat course. Some years they would have to change location because the locals (or sherif) didn't like having the race on their road (even though we'd only see a handful of cars while racing). A few years ago Conn was injured and unable to bike. He lost a lot of motivation to hold so many races. In 2010 there was one race, which was the most popular race..the Kent Park Classic. Unfortunately, the day before that race a late snow storm moved in and the race was cancelled. In 2010 that race was held again, and he started the TT's. HBA racing (Cedar Rapids team) is somewhat affiliated with them now, but not sure to what extent.
Flat Race Flier:
http://www.usacycling.org/events/getflyer.php?permit=2011-427
Hilly Race Flier:
http://www.usacycling.org/events/getflyer.php?permit=2011-898
I posted more info on our club's forum...
http://iaheat.org/node/73
Not sure if they will be held this year. When I would do the races a few years ago there were 10-20 people. Now they were lucky to have 5 show up.
There are 20m (used to be 40k, but they shortened it) TT's held one weekend a month that I believe will continue to next year. Fairly flat course, but too long to use as a test, unless you go all out for the first chunk, then easy for the rest. Or swag an FTP from it. This year's race info...
http://www.iowacitycyclingclub.com/iccc-events/black-diamond-tt-series/
I can let you know more when I hear about the 2012 schedule. They sometimes post to the bikeiowa yahoo group (http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/bikeiowa/). Do you subscribe?
Thanks for the info! Yes, I get the bike Iowa yahoo group. I confess I don't read it very carefully, but I do keep an eye out for the announcements of the TTs in the spring!
If you do manage to get out this way during the spring/summer, the Elkhart race is short (~7 mi if I recall) and flat...a straight out and back. Sometimes the weather is just ideal, and sometimes it's windy. It runs north/south so visibility isn't an issue either. I didn't race it last year at all, but the few times I've gone, it's been very well attended.
@William, I still feel like a student of this whole thing. I just immerse myself in what ever I do.
I want to hear and see what others are doing. I want to learn as much as possible.
The compact gearing is only on my loaner bike. The bike I finally take delivery of will have standard gearing with Di2.
Sometimes I'm frustrated with the numbers I'm getting going from outside to inside. Maybe it's a mental thing, maybe it's calibration. I'll find out soon. By the time I hit the start-lines of my races this year, I WILL know. I know I saw here in the forums somewhere that someone was using Computrainer to set a target load, then use PowerTap to check the power. I will take this idea and compare power devices.(Computrainer, PowerTap training wheels, and PowerTap Race wheels.) Sometimes I wish I would have gone with SRM. I like PowerTap's ease of moving between bikes, but now that I have more than 2 wheel sets, the SRM seems like a better option, even for each bike, I really care about. I'll have 3 bikes that I could ride this year, and would want power from all.
If you sijply HAVE to know all you metrics, all the time, you might want to save your pennies for one of these, if it ever becomes available. It's real enough for a DC Rainmaker review