Good points from Al and Robin. I'll disagree with Joel about the need for long swim sets. Millions of swimmers are training just like this:
Swim repeats of between 1-~8' long at a very fast pace. For competitive swimmers, these are 100's to, at the most, 800y repeats.
Take just enough rest to allow you to repeat those times, or die trying.
The net is you put together a 2-3k main set at a MUCH faster pace than you would in a 2-3k continuous swim.
Trust me, people that swim like _that_ above are more than capable of knocking out a 5-10k continuous swim at a very fast clip.
Maybe a better way to put it is that longer sets, probably done at what would be considered to be a Z3 effort, are great for racking up training stress but they are not the best way to get faster. Similar to the bike, if you want to swim fast you gotta swim fast and that means a LOT of Z4 work.
But, as we've said, there are many, many easier, don't cost us energy except the fitness to maintain it things to fix before swimming is faster is more about fitness and less about technique.
It's reassuring to hear that, Rich. That's what I've been doing the past 6-8 weeks. My longest intervals are 800, except for the 1000 yd test I did. Even when I swim OWS, I do 625 meter intervals on 30 sec rest (cause that's how far it is from one side of the lake to another!). My time for 100s is still coming down, I can repeat them in 1:30/31 now, which is the best I've been in 3 years now.
One other little thing I've adopted, to try and help with arm strength and position, is to finish each session with 50s doing breast stroke, paying strong attention to my pull getting a good grip on the water with elbows up, hands down. Breast was my competitive stroke, so I know how to apply the strength here. I think this is helping me improve the initial phase of my freestyle pull
Al, no problem! I'm just saying that Joel...saying...that you gotta swim long sets to get faster at swimming long is like saying that the Cat1 roadie only riding 40-60 miles on Saturday can't kick your ass for a 112 mile ride. He can kick your ass because he's fookin' fast and got there by swimming short and fast, a LOT.
The triathlon swimming world is full of people swimming 1-3k continuous swims very slowly and not getting any faster.
And regards to swim instruction, etc: as you can imagine, PnI have much experience with what people in this sport will and will not spend money on. People who will balk at a $60-75 60' swim session with underwater video won't think twice to drop $600 on a wheel :-)
Two comments on the wheel vs. lesson thing: (1) Wheels are sexy and everyone knows you have them. Plus you get to look at them and feel good about them any time you want. No one knows how many lessons you'll need or has quite the confidence they should that they will work. (2) Wheels are "free speed" from a work perspective. Lessons are too, but less tangible - and the intellectual work involved in changing yourself is more costly to a lot of people than just checking the box on money or time.
But Rich I promise... I'm working on the swim thing. :-)
@John: yep, back in the day the rest interval was NEVER longer than 5-10" per repeat. If I was given 30" rest...standby because that means I was expected to murder myself. 1'...holy shit, this gonna suck.
@WJ: yep, I'm pretty cynical with regards to what triathletes will and won't spend money on. I have zero mercy or sympathy for a doode who can't swim, is training with a shitty budget or free training plan, doesn't know how to train with power correctly or any number of many "too cheap to invest in knowledge" type stuff, because I've seen easily you fookin' people can spend money on gear. :-)
So now I feel better having never done an EN 3800 m "RR" in the pool. I do those as a descending ladder: 800/700/600/500/400/300/200/100/50/50/25 x 4 with ~5-10 sec rest/100. Trying to work each one, and the second half of each interval, a little harder, checking the time/100 to motivate me.
Or in my local lake, it's 6 x 625 meters, resting for 20-45 sec @ each end.
OK been following this thread here and on ST. Looking for guidance for training with paddles, pullbuoy's, and bands. How often ? How much? Types of sets and distances? Combined with other intervals? Before or after those other intervals?
I have the time and like to swim. Currently swimming twice a week during my Dec OS , one master's , and one solo workout. My IM swim times have been 1:17 , 1:11 , and 1:05 in that order. Recently completed alot of techique instruction with semi-private lessons. My theory this winter is simple , follow an EN type program of FAST then FAR. So keeping my solo workout around 45min and usually do wu, 50's then 100's, cd. More rest than masters inbetween so I can keep my sets consistant. If masters class that week had a bunch of short hard intervals I usually do pullbouy sets 3X500 as my solo workout. I introduced pullbouy sets into my swim workouts after reading Coach Rich doing them in prep for his IM. Have had good luck with them , focussing on form and fitness.
Looking to introduce paddles with some kind of plan! Thanks Tim
Comments
Good points from Al and Robin. I'll disagree with Joel about the need for long swim sets. Millions of swimmers are training just like this:
Maybe a better way to put it is that longer sets, probably done at what would be considered to be a Z3 effort, are great for racking up training stress but they are not the best way to get faster. Similar to the bike, if you want to swim fast you gotta swim fast and that means a LOT of Z4 work.
But, as we've said, there are many, many easier, don't cost us energy except the fitness to maintain it things to fix before swimming is faster is more about fitness and less about technique.
One other little thing I've adopted, to try and help with arm strength and position, is to finish each session with 50s doing breast stroke, paying strong attention to my pull getting a good grip on the water with elbows up, hands down. Breast was my competitive stroke, so I know how to apply the strength here. I think this is helping me improve the initial phase of my freestyle pull
The triathlon swimming world is full of people swimming 1-3k continuous swims very slowly and not getting any faster.
And regards to swim instruction, etc: as you can imagine, PnI have much experience with what people in this sport will and will not spend money on. People who will balk at a $60-75 60' swim session with underwater video won't think twice to drop $600 on a wheel :-)
Ouch. :-)
Two comments on the wheel vs. lesson thing: (1) Wheels are sexy and everyone knows you have them. Plus you get to look at them and feel good about them any time you want. No one knows how many lessons you'll need or has quite the confidence they should that they will work. (2) Wheels are "free speed" from a work perspective. Lessons are too, but less tangible - and the intellectual work involved in changing yourself is more costly to a lot of people than just checking the box on money or time.
But Rich I promise... I'm working on the swim thing. :-)
@WJ: yep, I'm pretty cynical with regards to what triathletes will and won't spend money on. I have zero mercy or sympathy for a doode who can't swim, is training with a shitty budget or free training plan, doesn't know how to train with power correctly or any number of many "too cheap to invest in knowledge" type stuff, because I've seen easily you fookin' people can spend money on gear. :-)
So now I feel better having never done an EN 3800 m "RR" in the pool. I do those as a descending ladder: 800/700/600/500/400/300/200/100/50/50/25 x 4 with ~5-10 sec rest/100. Trying to work each one, and the second half of each interval, a little harder, checking the time/100 to motivate me.
Or in my local lake, it's 6 x 625 meters, resting for 20-45 sec @ each end.
AWESOME!
swim lessons in full swing this winter....suhweet....I'm evolving!....but, dang, too late cuz I'm an ol' fart just trying to hang on....
I have the time and like to swim. Currently swimming twice a week during my Dec OS , one master's , and one solo workout. My IM swim times have been 1:17 , 1:11 , and 1:05 in that order. Recently completed alot of techique instruction with semi-private lessons. My theory this winter is simple , follow an EN type program of FAST then FAR. So keeping my solo workout around 45min and usually do wu, 50's then 100's, cd. More rest than masters inbetween so I can keep my sets consistant. If masters class that week had a bunch of short hard intervals I usually do pullbouy sets 3X500 as my solo workout. I introduced pullbouy sets into my swim workouts after reading Coach Rich doing them in prep for his IM. Have had good luck with them , focussing on form and fitness.
Looking to introduce paddles with some kind of plan! Thanks Tim