Long run pace?

mcstrangelove

Last season I used the Marathon Hack and found that it really tore me up on the long runs (16-18-20 miles).  Holding z2 (7:25) for 12 miles is out of the question for me.  I'd end up overdoing it with those z2 and z3 intervals and walking WAY too much as a result.

Yet, all the running gurus stress that the long run pace should be 2 minutes below race pace which seems too slow.

I'm using the hack again and wondering: is there a happy medium?  Is there a problem with running the long runs as a "race rehearsal" i.e. at the pace I'd aim for during the race or a bit faster (between z1 and z2)?

Peter Greagg

I am not sure I understand the problem.
Isn't Z2 your MP (assuming you have enough far under your fast)? If so, your Z2 should be around your race pace.
I am just starting HIM intermediate week 5 and did my long run today. It was 30 mins @ Z1, 2 x 10 mins (3) @ Z3, 20 mins @ Z1, 20 mins @ Z2 etc. Well all the stuff up to the Z2 interval was hardish but doable. When I did the 20 mins @ Z2 (which is hopefully my race pace), it was really tough. Every time I looked at my xt310, I had slowed and had to put in a huge effort just to get back on to Z2 pace. I am assuming this trains you to be able to tough it out when the going gets very hard in the last third of the race.
And I assume that is the thinking behind the 12 miles @ Z2 in the hack.
BTW, I love your Vdot.

mcstrangelove

Yeah, I don't quite understand the data tool's calculations.  My 5K test time was 20:15 which puts me at a z2 of 7:25 (MP).  For most training intervals I'm good.  But there's no way I'm gonna be running a 7:25 pace marathon anytime soon. 

The z1 pace is actually closer to my PR marathon pace.

jhbinsc

Then that sounds more like a training or execution issue. Do you hit other targets at your VDOT? That is, do you run predicted pace for 10K and half marathon based on your 5K VDOT?

mcstrangelove

My 10K time is about 42:00 which is on track for a 149 vDot.  My half marathon time is about 1:42:00 which is a slower than what the vDot would predict. And of course my full marathon time is about 20 minutes slower than my predicted vDot time.

For what it's worth, my AG ranking is higher in shorter distance races.  Maybe I'm more of a fast twitch athlete than a slow twitch? Everyone is trying to convince me that my issue is the fact I don't have a good foundation of Long/Slow Running experience. 

[Deleted User]

Posted By Mac Caudill on 04 Jan 2012 06:20 PM

Yet, all the running gurus stress that the long run pace should be 2 minutes below race pace which seems too slow.

Agreed, I also take issue with this piece of advice. Perhaps it's directed towards beginning runners who might not have much experience holding their proper marathon pace? Of course, there's also the school of training that advocates running long slow miles to build up a base, but that seems largely at odds with the EN way of doing work. I guess from an ROI perspective, running slow isn't the most efficient way to build up speed.

I think when I started doing regular long runs, I just held a pace that I could sustain for X number of miles. Didn't really bother to look at a watch or anything to keep track of my pace. Of course, the first few runs were a bit slower than I wanted, but after a bit of time and patience the paces started to pick up. 

 

jhbinsc

So you seem to fall off after 10K huh? How many years have you been running and how many half and full marathons have you done? I know some people fail to meet their predictions across the board but this is pretty individual.

PS: Do you mean VDOT of 49?

cgres123

Agree with you on falling off pace on the long ones matter of fact I find it hard to maintain pace when the heat kicks in too.
I was reading the Wiki about the hack and it said that you should be racing 2 to 3 Vdot points below your current Vdot and in another Wiki article it tells you how to break up your Marathon into chunks for better execution.
I know that this doesn't address your issue of falling off pace on the long ones. I'm interested in what the Wicked Smart folks have to say about that cause today is my first day of the Hack. I'm sure I'd be in the same boat soon enough too.

Good Post !!

Hey P ya got yer ears on ???

Swanie

Generally speaking, if you can meet your predicted Vdot times in the 5k, 10k and maybe even the 1/2 marathon then you fall off for the full marathon the problem lies in your endurance. You can improve your endurance, and thus your marathon times, by increasing the nuMber of long runs and hitting those zone 2 and zone 3 intervals in the middle miles of those long runs. If you can't hit the full interval then start with a shorter interval AT THE PRESCRIBED pace and every week make that interval longer until you are hitting the full interval. As you improve your endurance you will be able to match that Vdot predicted pace for the marathon.

mcstrangelove

For some reason I was confusing my vDot and FTP  I've done 9 stand-alone marathons and 2 halves since 2004.  Each one I've progressively gotten faster by a couple of minutes each race.  My longest training runs are 18 miles.  My run volume usually leans towards "overtraining," so I'm not sure how I'd add more long runs (this season I'm trying to add a 2nd long run to my week - 2/3 the distance of my regular long run).

The advice about shortening the duration of some of the intervals makes sense.  An hour+ at my z2 hasn't been possible (yet).

So, I take it that a 16-18 mile "race rehearsal" (no intervals, consistent race pace) would be a waste of time in training?

Trent Prough

I think some are just at a lower Vdot point in the longer races. I mean they can run some pretty killer 5k and even 10 k times but can't seem to equal the performance in the half and full marathon. If I were you and starting a hack for a marathon I would go on all training at the Vdot of my longest race I recently ran. In other words your half marathon of 1:42:00 if wasn't too long ago or was at your same fitness level as know then go with what that vdot comes out too and try the suggested paces at the new lower vdot. If you still can't hold the paces then maybe your true marathon vdot is still even a little lower and need to adjust again. Don't try and run long runs with paces of Z2 and Z3 intervals in them that you can not hold. This will send you to injury or burn out!!

Bruce Thompson

I agree with Steve about the importance of doing the intervals inside the long.  I agree with Trent if you can't hit the paces, back off to a lower VDOT.  One thing I've found that works is to break the intervals up into more, but shorter segments, with recovery in between. For example, if the plan says 2 x 10' @ Z2 pace with 3' recovery, try 4 x 5' @ Z2 with 2' recovery.  You still get the same amount of work time (20 mins) @ ;Z2  but get a little more total recovery time so you can hit the pace for the entire the workout time. 

mcstrangelove

That's interesting about using the vDot of my last marathon.  Only problem is that it would drop me 10 vDot points which would remove any "work" from my training runs.

Also, in the hack there are no short intervals.  They are all longer, like: "6 miles @ z3".  Does that mean I would break that interval into mile repeats, like: 6 x 1 mile @ z3 (3') or something like that?  

Joseph Lombardi

Well Daniels will tell you that vDot is not a race result predictor.  It establishes your lactate threshold per se by virtue of Daniels developing an accurate correlation between tested Lactate and pace data.....and then applies the same formulaic correlations to estimate  "best possible" pace over longer distance run..

A vDot based on 5k...may be an accurate predictor of race finish for maybe out to 10k...then most performance results will fall short of a straight line correlation with 5k vDot paces....most people are not able to train optimally for both 5k & Marathon....Someone else noted and I would agree that the variation is a measure of the the balance of your training - anaerobic v aerobic capacity and as someone else noted...your result may indicate that you need to do more intense longer intervals to extend your ability to run longer at threshold....

My suggestion/thought/idea is to do fast finish type long runs...but starting with very easy pace out to 9-12 miles...then picking it up to MPace for 1-3 miles to begin..then trying to add an additional mile at MPace every other week...or something like that...until you are running 10k at Mpace at the tail of your long run...

 

 

mcstrangelove

That's a good suggestion about "fast finish" long runs.  Historically, the last 6 miles of my marathons are slower than the first 20.

But I never understood the method of doing the majority of the long run at a super easy pace.  Doesn't that just train your legs to run slow for the marathon?

I like the style of the EN long run workouts (fast tempo runs built into the structure of a long run), but I guess I need to modify my z2 and z3 paces a bit, or (more likely) break up the sets into mile repeats.

Joseph Lombardi

Mac- I like EN style training as well...and there are similar approaches in the run only groups...ie. The Hanson Running project pretty much focuses on 3 runs/week  2 mostly interval or Temp and the long run...the rest is no that important...they are big on the FF long run...

There is nothing inherently bad about long runs at Easy Pace...its just the same ROI equation...if you wanna run fast ...why waste all that time running slow...cuz running slow pace aint gonna make you fast....but there are benefits and combining/balancing easy/fast/roi is the key.

I believe the FF works because you are running on tired legs(?) and mentally you are running at threshold deep into the distance...there must be some adaptive benefits to that over just running 10K at threshold pace...

mcstrangelove

Cool, thanks for the info.  For what it's worth, I used the marathon hack on my OS run today.  It totaled 12 miles, and this time I broke the z2/3 stretches into mile repeats.  For the first time I was able to complete the workout at the required intensities.  I was pretty worn out by the end, but not terribly sore or in pain.  I'm just not sure if I was overdoing it or not.