What are your thoughts on "pre-loading" hard efforts?
The talk of the Paleo diet and also recent experiences and other in-flow of info has really got me thinking that there is some credence to taking a gel before, and during high efforts like FTP test, or even during efforts like mile repeats.
I did my 3x1 today, and my first 2 miles were relatively close in time, but my third mile fell way off, and there was nothing I could do to pick it up. I didn't take anything with me as the thought was that I'm doing "ony 7 miles"...
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I do my bike and run sessions in the mornings, so I have a gel and a coke (fuel and caffeine) before hand as it is around 12 hours since I last ate. This appears to do the job as I am able to finish the sessions. For my long run during the season, I take a gel and drink every 30 mins to practice my race fueling strategy (I do a 30 min loop from my house). I never bonk on that run.
During a FTP test (or Z4 intervals), or 5 km TT (or Z4 run intervals) I wouldn't think you should take any fuel as it could negatively impact on your ability to do the work by switching blood from the muscles to your stomach and gut — you could also loose the fuel from effort (LOL).
First, I'm putting a little bit in the tank to be able to avoid dragging.
Second, I'm practicing IronGut technique. Most of the time, it will be stuff that I use on race day. Maybe not the exact routine, but I'll know what it'll feel like to have 'X' in my stomach when I'm working.
Of course, there are times when I can't do the 'pre-loading' due to life stuff. Then, I just play the hand that's dealt me. But, if I have control of the situation, I will fuel properly (at least, to the best of my knowledge).
Remember that to get the most out of every workout (the stress during), we have to have the energy to be sharp. If not, we probably left something on the table. Then, the fitness gains thru recovery aren't maximized either.
We do a ton of workouts over the course of a year or season. There's no way to do every one perfect (before, during, after). But, I try to nail the ones that I can.
Just my 2 cents worth. Keep the change.
Thanks everyone!
I did do a bit of a pre-load, before I started, but I must have used all the fuel by the time I got to my 3rd repeat. [8:49, 8:57, 9:53] Yes, I'm slow, but I'm also bigger than most.(250# 12% bodyfat.) I had nothing to get to sub 9:00. Not even close. I was also probably a bit fatigued by Saturday's workout. 75 min. on bike( 2x14 + 3x2Min "ON"/"OFF" + 12 min 85% FTP ) then 10 mile run. But, those first 2 repeats weren't bad.
Good discussion, my notes:
I tend to think more in terms of managing my overall glycogen replacement than of pre-fueling. If you do a hard workout the day before and don't adequately top up the glycogen stores, you could enter the next day's workout depleted. I know if I pay attention to replacing the carbs, especially in the 30-minute window after exercising, and then continuing at a slower pace for the same duration as the workout I jsut did, I tend to not need to pre-load much for the next day's workouts. I do not ever take gels or any kind of nutrition with me unless I'm going over 2 hours.
On the 3 x 1 mile repeats, it seems like there could've been other factors at play. The long workout the day before could've been a contributing factor - adding a 10 mile run on top of the hard bike workout (which I'm guessing must be some kind of run hack as that's not in the workout schedule??) at the paces you're talking about adds another hour onto Saturday's workout that's not on the schedule. Thus it might be hard to hit the Sunday run and make all the intervals. Did you feel any other symptoms of a bonk - dizziness, mental fuzziness, nausea? If not, it might not have been a glycogen problem but just plain old muscle fatigue. Other issues - electrolyte balance, hydration, amount of sleep, etc. could be contributors?? Just some thoughts...
Yeah, that's basically how I view it, and using an app like LoseIt helps me quickly develop a sense of how topped off my gas tank is/isn't.
i.e., If it "costs" ~800 calories to sleep overnight, is that all coming out of fat because of "low intensity" and digestion the meals of the day before is restoring glycogen? Or do we wake up with a less-than-full glycogen tank until after getting something down in the morning?
I think the timing of your meals in relation to your workouts is something to think about as well. That is something to look at for sure. There is a great sport nutritionist in town who I have learned alot from. Here is the website she recommends you USA folks check out: http://riceinfo.com/dietitians/sport-nutrition-for-the-competitive-athlete/
Here is a presentation off her website entitle Running on Empty that might interest you as well http://www.peakperformance.on.ca/ti..._empty.php and..... an article entitled A Six Step Planner to Power Eating
Happy reading
@Brenda, THANK YOU!! That PDF is AWESOME. I can sit and really figure out a menu of foods to eat. I've been looking for a good concise source with this info. Have you had much experience with the estimated metabolic values from BodPod: how close are they to true? I understand the body composition numbers have ~ 1% error much better than calipers. I'm not sure I trust the bio-electrical impedance scales yet as I've had bad luck with those. Maybe it was one of the cheap versions.
@Rich and Robin, I agree some external factors came into play, but it really felt more like a fuel issue. I'm also trying to get my body comp back near race weight.
I've really been struggling with the nutrition stuff. Not at losing weight, but maintaining some sort of sport performance and lose body fat at the same time. I was working with a sports nutrition person in town, but when it was apparent that he was not looking at the combination of my exercise and food logs, I had to drop him.
Most of the struggle has come from the quagmire of available information. One source sez I need 5000 calories/day, another 3500, another 4300.
The PDF that Brenda linked us to bases the calorie needs off of real numbers.
Now I pre-load all my workouts (at least a gel), take sportsdrink if it's going to be 45' or longer, and have a recovery drink/shake almost instantly afterwards!
I think the most valuable aspect of logging food and calories burned is you get soooo much more in tune with your body. I've learned so much about how I work over the last couple years and know very well how to manage, and screw up, my body comp goals and how they relate to (in)effectively fueling quality workouts.
Thanks R & P!!! and everyone else.
This thread, and some other knowledge input, has made me think about some things differently. I'm at the point where I need to sit down with a spread sheet to calculate the numbers I need. It feels like "Lose It" and "Daily Plate" give mis-information as to calories burned. I have data from garmin, and computrainer, about the calories I'm burning while running/biking. I know I'm getting close to the body comp by the vascularity of my body, and the new muscle definition. I'll also have the body comp checked in April by BodPod.
I will be eating more to fuel workouts, and for recovery. I was previously eating to recover: exercise to eat.
I'm still in search of nutrition that I can tolerate on the move. The other goal is searching for the nutrition that works for me past mile 15 of a run. I have the time. I have the SAP. She's all in for me to complete IM WI. I'm fairly strong on the bike, but need work on the run.
@Sam - what problems are you having with nutrition during workouts?
@Penny, For most runs in the 10-12 mile range, I have no problems unless I take on too much water at one time. When I get up to the 15+ mile mark, I start getting stomach cramping. In the marathon that I did last year, it could have been nutrition concentration. I started getting stomach cramps at about mile 14-15. I got the cramps solved by not taking anything in, and by mile 18 I was feeling pretty good. It wasn't until about mile 22 that my wall hit.
The only way I know to solve the problem is time at that distance. I also don't plan on doing more than an 18 mile long run before my IM(WI). Right now, I'm working my way back up to those distances, as I had my knee scoped out this past July to clean up a torn meniscus. I'm taking it slowly and trying to finess it.
The goal is to fuel the EN workouts while balancing recovery and a weekly long run(adding 2 miles/month, currently at 10) . So far, I've had only one small set back, I twisted my knee in a dog agility class last Monday. I took off most of last week from running, but kept up with the bike, and was able to do my 10-miler yesterday, and an easy 6-miler today without the EN repeats. No running tomorrow. Been doing lots of stretching also.
BTW, the activity calories from Daily Plate have been a source of amusement in our house. Daily plate will add 5000 calories for a 1:25:00 bike and a 10-mile run. Garmin and Computrainer usually has me spending about 2700 for the same exercise.
Still not sure how to count calories from swimming.
I'm not sure how I'm going to eat the required calories once the volume REALLY cranks up. I've been averaging about 2500 lately.
Since I am a "wake up and exercise" person, as soon as the alarm goes, I drink 16-20 oz water and take meds that need to be on an empty stomach. 15 minutes before leaving I drink 6 oz protein/carb shake (Bolton farms Vanilla Chai Soy Protein).
If the run is 45 minutes or less, despite intervals, I don't take anything- water if it's hot. If it's any longer- and the last 3/4 mile is essentially all uphill for me, I take watered down sports drink. Especially with mile repeats- quality falls off. Plus I have to run home from wherever in town I did my repeats (not near my house- too hilly). Since I live near the highest point in town, I learned the hard way to take this into account. Stumbling home and into the shower before work is not fun.
I follow the calorie counts from the Garmin for running, WKO+ for biking (with a grain of salt), and don't generally count calories for swimming because it is rarely a stand alone workout. When it gets harder, I take a gel after swimming before the next workout. But I like Peter's estimate above as opposed to 600 cal/hr from Rich. I am not that strong a swimmer. Last night I even thought "I'm not really pushing myself with this swimming. Guess I'd better get back in master's."
Trial and error will get you there. But body comp is hard to work on at the same time. I had the same results as Patrick and I am still refining my plan every year.
Good luck.