Home General Training Discussions

Anyone Else Lost Interest in Logs & WKO+?

Historically, I've been a numbers hound.  TSS, ATL, Performance Management Charts, Mean Maximal Charts, TrainingPeaks, etc.  Logging, downloading, analyzing, fixing, etc. - I have no time or interest in it anymore.  And this mentality started AFTER joining EN.  Why?  I don't know.  For the most part, I just do what I am told by following the plan.  And my Garmin 310XT and Joule and Pace Clock at the pool tell me what's going on real-time.  It's like lather, rinse, repeat - day after day.  And if I follow the plan, I accomplish the goal at the daily level but also the season level.  Sure, I will download big rides, races or tests and do the analysis, graphs, charts and fun stuff.  But I don't have time to log every workout, measure where I am with TSS this week vs. last week, etc.

Who's with me?

Comments

  • I kind of lost the discipline during the off season, mid Oct thru Dec. I would dl my workouts into wko about once every two weeks and not even look at them. Didn't bother logging the short rehab runs or the swims. Only reason I put the bikes in was so WKO could keep a tally on my cumulative power stuff. Logging RPE went from 10 leading into my October race to a 2 during this period.

    Now that Jan OS is here, I'm back on, tho.

    I understand what your hinting at. Just stick to the plan and we'll get faster. Bare bones and hard work. Got it.
  • Totally agree here. I only use WKO to determine the occasional NP or TSS if I'm curious, but otherwise, I don't use it at all. The only log I really use is Garmin Connect, but that's because all I have to do is upload and not really input anything. This started after I joined EN too. I guess the fact that I've been doing all this hard work gives me confidence that my training is going somewhere, and now I don't have to dig through a training log to look for results.

  • Yes, for sure. Though I now train with power and pace, I just use my 310xt and upload the data to Garmin Connect to look at, roughly weekly. Only exception are unique rides or races and an old-school Excel sheet that I've kept for ~ 12 yrs that tracks time and distance, by sport. I know that some (incl possibly Coach R) might say that I'm just using the PT and 310xt as a fancy cyclocomputer, but not sure I'd agree. I track 3s avg watts and interval times on the screen. Total time and distance takes care of itself or I can use time of day. I really like the simplicity of one device that can track all 3 sports and races and a wireless web interface. Much, much easier than monkeying around with a lot of software, cables, etc. If you do the work, IMO, that's all that really matters.
  • I couldn't lose interest cuz I didn't have it in the first place. I'm totally on board with using my Garmin and Powertap in real time to gauge my efforts and I will usually plug my LYC into the computer afterward to confirm if I hit my intervals properly, but with 2 kids under 6 yrs and a demanding job I couldn't care less where my max power from a trainer session 3 weeks ago falls within a graph... I know I could probably squeeze out a couple more % points of improvement if I spent a bunch of time analyzing things to death, but it's just not worth the opportunity cost to me. If I'm hitting the intervals and consistently testing well, that's all the feedback I need.
  • I think EN has substituted for all the analysis I used to do. I guess it wasn't really analysis at all; it was just looking at the numbers to see if I thought I had a good workout. I still use all the gadgets to track every imaginable performance variable, but without other data or a statistical model, my numbers are just my numbers. With EN I've focused on the Vdot value on everything but the pool, although I still swim (and I track stroke count, speed, etc.). Vdot is about all I need to plan my schedule now.
  • I'm jealous of all you guys who take advantage of the solid EN plan progressions, and trust that by meeting the daily numbers, there's no need to worry about how they add up - we all knowthey will. I know I'll never be able to give logging my workouts, and then, on a regular basis, look at the metrics (hours, meters, miles, TSS with ATL/CTL/TSB) build over time. I know this because I have counted every stroke I've swum for the past 40+ years; I know this because as an MD, I've spent decades looking at patients' charts and following the progression of their temperature, or lab value, or whatever we're trying to improve; and I know this because when I was in the business world, I had to make sure all the numbers kept going in the right direction every month.

    Is there a support group or intervention program for this? Or am I stuck with it for life?

  • @ Al - Tho not as bad as what you're describing, I go thru spells or seasons like that. This year may end up like that because I have a goal that is result based as opposed to the 'just doing it to do it' or 'just finish' or 'survive' goal. Luckily, I do have the ability to mix those years up and I'm not always after that PR. Anyhow, someone once asked me how do I know when it's time to stop counting miles or meters or strokes or whatever, and the answer that I've mooched off of someone alot smarter than I am....I stop counting when the buzzards start pecking!

    I doubt there's any buzzards circling. I mean it's only plantar fasciitis. So, keep logging.
  • I track my every workout; swim, bike, run because I want to monitor my TSB and CTL on the performance maintenance chart. It's not terribly important now being two weeks into a new season, but come 6 weeks out from an Ironman or 70.3 race and I am feeling beat up or super strong I want to know how I am sitting with my current TSB to see if I should hold back on a workout or keep steaming ahead. To each his own when it comes to tracking this info, but if you don't track it and something goes south before an A race you really can only guess what it was. You're sure to repeat it the following year.
  • There are a lot of toys and gadgets that are out there to track and analyze our workouts, but I wonder if people actually bother to make sense out of all the data. Sure, it's nice to have a training log to see how much we've accomplished and to keep ourselves accountable, but the real purpose of tools like WKO is to really dig deep and find trends and patterns in our training. Aside from some technical know-how, this requires a lot of headspace and data analysis skills to process meaningfully. 

    I have a fairly good scientific and technical background (degree in astrophysics), but I still find it difficult to make good use of all this data. The only data I actually use from my training log are small little notes like "Didn't take enough calories before a long run, bonked hard", instead of a whole bunch of power from a ride a few weeks back. There are even pro and really fast AG athletes who don't bother training/racing with all these power/HR numbers. I think part of the obsession with having lots of data to look at is the mindset that doing "more" is better and will somehow make us faster. 

  • I'm not one to analyze the heck out of stuff and I rarely go back to look at past workouts. Add the fact that I have to dust off an old PC to use WKO and it rarely gets looked at. I will never, ever use WKO again once Garmin Connect has the added power metrics.
  • I'm fairly OCD about data. Pretty much in Al's camp. I could go on for a while about how I use it, but I won't, because I'm not trying to convince anyone that my way is the "right way" or anything like that. I will say that we do a lot of the same workouts in EN over and over, and the ability to compare performances in those workouts is something I value greatly.
  • Being the data geek that I am, it should come as no surprise that I log every workout. This year I have added Raceday Apollo to the mix. It appears to have a better set of training load / fatigue algorithms. It allows you to record performance test and it develops constants for the performance predicting algorithms based on you results. I have committed to use it for a year and see what I learn about me.



    On the recovery front I have added daily recording in Restwise to try and capture a second view of fatigue / recovery. Will see how this year develops.

     

    Yes maybe a bit over the top! Thats the way I tend to do things.

  • I think most folks have a sustainable bandwidth for metrics. After all, I am also tracking my food, my bank account, my kids immunizations, my cell phone minutes...you get the idea. So I personally RECORD all I do and DUMP it into places like WKO, etc., but I usually trust my plan until it comes time to focus. So right now my focus is on nutrition, so I am all over that stuff. Not so much the WKO, but it was nice to pull out my files since Nov OS 11 and Nov OS 10 and see that my watts are already higher.

    Track Always, Review As Needed
  • I am in Al and Patrick's camp. I guess it is how we are wired. I enjoy tracking all the same stuff as Patrick (except for the food part) and more. It is how I go through life.
  • Coach P 2X on Track Always, Review As Needed
  • I also am in Al and P's camp. I enjoy tracking and monitoring my progression plus I also enter it into a bound paper training log. How's that for OCD? That way I can compare to same races I've done and body weight, body fat %, etc, since I started exercising in 2000. Just got a PM and WKO in past 5 years so I have a lot of data from 2000-present on paper logs.

    More of an interest and I think I'd like to have this written down so when I'm in my 70's I can peruse it and not worry about Garmin Connect or Training Peaks being  long gone. Maybe it is the physician in me like Al.

  • I guess that puts me somewhere in between. I track to make sure I keep minimum bank balances, pay bills on time and avoid fees. In training that translates into "Record and store in WKO always, Understand how many workouts you've done. Review as Needed". This gives me a big picture overview of whether I am doing what I need to be doing. I am only now realizing that I have WAY more to be concerned about in my life than whether or not I hit the time or intensity targets. The training palns help me to hit the workout targets. When I don't it is usually due to external life factors/demands, that are outside my physiological/training box.
  • I must be on the bottom end of the tracking totem pole, LOL. I have a small paper notebook, one for each year. That's it. I tend to pay close attention to how I feel, and go by that as far as whether or not to push a workout or back off. I feel like I know my body better than any numbers are going to tell me.  I think I spent too many years as a data geek in software engineering, so in my private life I don't want to be a slave to my spreadsheets. But that's just what works for me.

    It reminds me of when I bought my first HR monitor. I was going to use it to nail my pace for a really important Oly distance race. I wanted to peg my heart rate right around 163. But then I forgot to look at it for the entire race, since I wasn't used to using it. When I downloaded the data afterwards, I found that my heart rate averaged exactly 163! And good for a 3rd OA women's finish.

    Since then, I've repeated this experiment with power meters and HR monitors. It seems like I've got a fairly exact read on what my body is doing and can put it where it needs to be. So usually the gadgets stay in the drawer.

     

  • @ Robin - I agree 100% on the value of NOT looking at HR and other metrics during a race, and going by RPE. Until this past IM AZ, when I was unsure due to my accident/recovery cycle, I routinely was taking off my HR monitor strap going into an IM run, and never used a GPS wastch for races.

    But that's different than what some of us are describing, which is recording data on a daily basis, and then going back after the fact to follow trends, compare similar workouts over time, see what might work or not work in a taper, and even compare season to season, all in the service of learning.

    Then, on race day, I can feel more confident that I can actually race, rather than just to run by numbers. But I don't advocate that approach (race by RPE) for first time and more anxious IMer's. The EN strategy for race execution is the Bible for getting a good performance right out of the box, and repeating it until one has the chance to ingrain the learning, which takes a number of races to happen. And with IMs, doing at most one or two a year, or less, that can take quite a while.

  • @Al, I understand what you're saying about the difference between training and racing. And I can totally see the value in it for athletes. For me, even within workouts I think my RPE is close enough for me. Since I do about half my bike rides in the pain cave at home (no PM) and half at the Tri store on the Computrainer, I can see that when I think I'm at Z5, I look down at my numbers on the Computrainer and yep, that's exactly where I'm at, wattage-wise too. So I think when I'm without the numbers at home and just going by RPE, I'm still doing pretty much okay. Maybe it's just that with almost 30 years of straight training, the effort/zones are just dialed into my head, more or less.

    For me, closely tracking numbers like some folks do would I think leach a lot of the joy from my training, so it's just not something I tend to do. I know for some folks it has the exact opposite effect! Different strokes and all that...

  • My notes:

    • There are entire industries built on making you think that tracking your stuff is essential to making you faster: watches, GPS'es, footpods, HRMs, iPhone apps, endless gadgets and the website, many requiring a paid subscription, on which to track all of that stuff. However...
    • You get fast because you're training effectively, not because you did or did not log your stuff. IOW, there are millions of people who've dutifully purchased the latest Garmin 9000 GPS, paying TP.com for the privilege of uploading files, logging their hours of sleep per night, blood pressure, mileage on their shoes and much more...but training wrong or with the $ junk training plan.
    • That said, I've never been one to really plan out my own training. I workouts and course: I meet Sawiris at the bottom of a hill and try to beat him up. I have my FTP set in my Joule and have goal IF's for my rides. I have a number of local courses that I chose from to meet specific workout goals. I meet a fast guy for a run and try to hang on. I will do mile repeats at T-pace and just remember/notice trends over time.
    • However, I did enjoy logging my training this summer via a free account on WorkoutLog.com. Frankly, it was motivating to log the hours and miles and bounce that off of what I was feeling.

    But, bottomline, you get faster because you're training effectively. With EN that means that a damn good training plan. Logging your stuff isn't a substitute for training smartly and is a big reason why PnI have avoided adding training log features to the website: we only have so many resources to coach you and we don't want to apply any of those to making sure you can upload your data from your Garmin 9000. That's what TP.com and others are for.

Sign In or Register to comment.