Home General Training Discussions

Warm Up 2.0 (On the Bike, At Least)

Okay, so after reading Sami's post about his secret sauce to a sub-9 Ironman, my interest was piqued on several fronts. We discussed it here on the forums for a while, and Sami actually answers quite a few questions on his blog. Turns out he's a pretty nice guy (and a bigger guy at that, like in 180s, etc). But I digress.

 

The biggest thing that intrigued me was what he called his weekly mini-tests to gauge progress and fitness. Not once every 8 weeks like we do here on EN at say FTP, but rather an incremental effort at a lower %FTP that gave him some feedback. A test that he could do almost every time he rode. 

 

Think about it…instant feedback on every session before you download your file. And not related to can you push 95%, 97% or 98% of your FTP for 15 minutes, but rather where a (perhaps?) more relevant level of fitness might be. 

 

So I did what comes naturally. I made something up.

 

For the last 8 weeks I have modified my trainer warm up to be 15 minutes instead of 8 minutes. I now do:

 

* 2' super easy

* 2' steady

* 2' standing big gear

* 2' steady

* 4' at 80% of current FTP

* 3' super easy

 

And that fifth bullet is what I have been tracking. For me this is about 250 watts right now. It's remarkable that my ability to sit on that number, and the heart rate I get after about 2 minutes of 80% effort, really tell a story about my workout that day. 

 

IOW, I used to show up after waking up and say "I feel great, let's crush it" and have a bad ride. Or I'd feel awful and have a great one. Very little correlation between my perceived workout ability and the real thing. 

 

But with this 4' review, I can tell instantly if my day will be good, bad or ugly. 

 

I think Sami actually does 8' to 10' of such an effort as part of his outdoor rides, so I might modify this as I move outdoors. But for now I am curious to hear what you think?

 

I am not saying this would replace an FTP test by any means, but rather that it would be a daily indicator of how you are doing (vice the summation of an entire workout or workouts).  It could show fatigue (low watts, decoupling of HR, etc), as well as if an FTP bump might be due (lower HR for same watts).

 

Let the discussion begin, thanks!

Comments

  • In my opinion this will work most of the time, most of us usually know after a few minutes whether we have it or not for the day. Also  I see that 4 minutes at 80% like a primer for your body, something to really get the blood flowing and then the easy rest to kinda regroup and reset. I know I have had some of my best 5k times when I am hammering then literally stop and walk for 10-15 seconds and then get going again.

    So what would you do when you are doing your 4mins at 80 and you know you don't have it today? Bag it? Modify the workout?

     

  • Coach, I'm not clear on what metric you are using to tell you what the upcoming workout will be like. I'm also not clear on how this is used to give you incremental progress between tests - specifically, should one alter the training program based on the fndings? (Maybe it's too early in the morning and I should re-read the post. Wait a minute until I go do that.)

    All right, I'm back, It looks like HR is what you are looking at. Personally, I've noticed with both running and biking that, as I ramp up my season after a longer recovery phase, or re-boot the season in  the middle after a big race, that my HR/power (or pace)  ratio during the main set will predictably and rather steadily decrease over the course of 6 weeks or so - same wats or pace, lower HR as the days and weeks go by. That does tell me the training is working without the need for an interim test. It's reassuring to watch, but it doesn't alter my training program.

    As to predicting what the specific workout will be like, I still don't understand quite what you are getting at, so my two questions above remain.

    It would make the warm-up less boring, for sure!

  • As far the warmup goes on the bike - I basically have been doing that all along. One to prevent injury and two - my body just needs to slowly ramp up the leg muscles before hitting the z4 or z5 intervals - like a 15 minute wakeup call. I can't estimate how my ride will be until I'm done the warmup. Pre-warmup I'm always a little dead - but after the warmup I'm better adjusted (both physically and mentally).

    Normal trianer warmup is 15-17 minutes for me. With a little bit of everything in it - but the majority of it is 75-85% of FTP. I start easy, work up to 80% wtih some standing, then hold 75%- 80% for a while, then do 10-20 sec spurts of z4-z5 intervals both sitting and standing, back to 80-85% for 4-5 minutes, then last minute easy --- then hit 1st scheduled interval. Usually I can tell from this warm-up whether I'm gonna hit my numbers, be on the low end or high end. If I'm feely really really good - I can get away w/10 minute warmup -but that is rare.
  • My warmup depends on what my workout is normally.  If I am headed into V02 intervals for example I do:

    5' Z1/z2

    3X30" 100+ cadence

    3X3' Z3

    1X1' Z4

    Then V02 intervals........

    That is about a 20' WU that averages out to be about 75%.....

    SS

     

  • If you read the literature associated with Phil Skiva (sp?) RaceDay software carefully, you'll see that he advocates extremely frequent but short testing, as well. His software is based on a pulse-response model, so he really needs a lot of data to justify it. I forget what he advocates for the run, but he advocates a 3 minute all out test very frequently on the bike. Then he goes back and fits that outcome to your past TSS pattern to fit an equation to best predict your outcome. In WKO language, in essence, what he is doing is customizing the time constants used for CTL and ATL so that your TSB is customized to you...and thus you can (theoretically) plan your taper that much more intelligently. It sounds like a good idea in principle, but probably hard to do in practice to really get enough data to make it work.

    ...a slight digression on your actual topic, but the point remains that this idea of VERY frequent but not-too-demanding testing is out there in lots of places.

    For the record, my bike warmup is:
    5 minutes whatever I feel like
    5 minutes of 1 minute FTP, 1 min easy, 1 min FTP, 1min easy, 1 min FTP
    5 min easy/recovery, building to about 85%

    I usually find, especially when I've been working hard elsewhere in the week, that it's really hard to hit that first FTP minute, but it comes around by the third...and then I'm ready to go by the time I start. I adopted this after finding out that the 85% type warmups weren't working for me...I would often feel terrible for the first part of the hard intervals.

    I am not sure what quantitative metric I could apply to my warmup, since the work part of it is so short.
  • Within the past few weeks I've started looking at my IF at the end of my WU. If it's .74-.75, I'll have a decent workout. .76-.77 is a killer workout. Last Saturday it was .703. I could barely hold 95% for 10'. Workout was 2x20' @ FTP. After the first 10', I backed off to 85% for 10', then quit the workout as I felt I needed more rest/recovery.

    My WU that I've used for 99% of my indoor workouts for the past 4 years....

    5' Easy
    4x30" spin-ups (30" RI)
    1' Easy
    3x2' (1' RI) @ moderate (~80-85%)
    1' Easy

    Totals 20 minutes.

  • My broader thoughts are, and sorry for the confusion:

    * Testing for "progress" doesn't have to mean an FTP effort for 2x20 or a 5k TT.
    * Those are benchmarks we use but are often too far apart or too affected by current fatigue load to be 100% accurate.
    * There _should_ be an incrementally easier way to measure your daily fitness potential to help you determine the best way to complete the given workout.

    My theory is that if I plot my AP and avgHR for the 4' warm up over time, that I will see:

    * increased ability to hold set watts (lower VI)
    * decreased HR for the same watt level
    * a correlation between a set wattage / HR and my actual workout performance.

    thoughts?
  • Posted By Patrick McCrann on 16 Jan 2012 03:36 PM

    ...

    * There _should_ be an incrementally easier way to measure your daily fitness potential to help you determine the best way to complete the given workout.

     
    My theory is ... that I will see:

    * a correlation between a set wattage / HR and my actual workout performance.



    So. As I track for each OS bike workout watts/HR during the standard warm-up "test" decribed in your initial post, if this number is lower than usual on a given day, then odds are my workout potential is lower.

    E.g., if I usually do the warm-up test @ 200 watts, with an HR of 120, then one day my HR is 125, I can expect that maybe I'm not ready for a full bore workout. OR, if I am usually pushing 200 watts/120 HR, but can only make 180/120, same thing.

    One worry is self-fulfilling prophecy issues - I might give up sooner if I know my W/HR is too low that day. Another is the known variability of HR - by time of day, previous workout that day, etc. But I can see how it might be helpful to avoid drilling oneself into a deep pit.

  • I'm not exactuly sure what the point of this all is. I totally agree that if you do the 4' and see a higher-than-average HR then you ought to expect a real tough workout. That's part of the "your HR fluctuates from day-to-day" and why we use power. And I agree that over a large set of datapoints you ought to see a trend of lower HR for given watts.

    Interestingly the "EN standard warmup" (which no one here seems to do...maybe I should re-think my warmup...) is 10' easy followed by 3x3'(1') @z3. That sounds pretty similar to Coach P's list of bullets -- a bunch of easy-ish riding followed by 80% work -- in this case 3' not 4' but pretty similar until you repeat it 2 more times, and as Coach P points out, the first 2 minutes are the most telling. And of course if the HR or RPE indicates that the workout is going to be tough, it doesn't really change what I do...you gotta still do the workout...!!

    When I think of "testing" fitness on the bike very regularly, I'd expect something at the end of the workout not at the beginning. For example, average watts on a 2' all-out at the end of a 3-hour EN ride where all the FTP work was done in the first hour. Any ideas will be riddled with methodological issues of course, but just a thought.
  • Very interesting. I've also been doing a variation on a theme for warm-ups:

    10 minutes whatever I want (with a strong "no peeking at the power meter" rule) for the first five minutes

    5 minutes drills

    5 minutes 3x1 minutes

    Interestingly, I've noticed if my legs naturally drift to 80%+ after the five-minute mark, the rest of the workout is usually easier to hit. Maybe I'll try working in a short test there - way less anxiety than those 2x20s.

  • Patrick, I like the idea of more frequent and even daily tests. My concerns with HR as being the main factor which will indicate a god day or a bad day is HR variability can be impacted by so many things, time of day , hydration, sleep levels, caffeine, stress mental / training ….on the list goes.



    I wonder if you also tracked you RPE level for the 4’ section of the warm-up also and see if that gives a better pre-workout indicator than HR for the 4’ section. Track both for a month and see what you see.





    William is right that Dr Philip Skiba recommends frequent shorter tests to provide the data needed for Raceday to be able to model you as an athleate. These are maximal tests from 2 – 10 min. In a nut shell he comes down to the best indicator of performance capability is performance. So on the bike 2 and 5 min tests seem to be used if one is not willing to do a longer test. On the run 1k and 5k tests. Testing every 2 weeks is suggested.



    Below is from the Raceday user guide on testing.



    Appendix II: The 2-minute Test

    Practically any endurance event takes a combination of aerobic and anaerobic

    metabolism. Scientists have shown that it is possible to accurately model very short

    (about 10 second) events using math that ignores the aerobic contribution to the

    power generated. In other words, because performance in the 100M dash relies

    mostly upon preexisting ATP and creatine phosphate stores, we can ignore

    whatever minimal effect aerobic metabolism might have on this task. Likewise,

    scientists have also shown that it is possible to accurately model events longer than

    about 2 minutes (i.e. an 800M track event) by ignoring the anaerobic contribution

    to the energy required, because the preponderance of the energy required comes

    from aerobic sources.



    Does anaerobic capacity effect short term power output? Of course. We aren’t

    suggesting otherwise. You could significantly increase 2 minute power by training

    anaerobic capacity regularly. However, someone training for longer events

    probably focuses more on aerobic training. (Most of our triathletes almost entirely

    exclude anaerobic capacity training). Thus, we make the following assumptions:



    1. Anaerobic capacity is essentially constant.

    2. Most of the variation/improvement comes from changes in aerobic energy

    systems.



    These are rather dangerous assumptions to make to be sure, and you can only make

    them if you are well versed in the athlete’s training and know that anaerobic

    capacity training is truly minimal. If the athlete is making drastic changes to

    training with respect to anaerobic capacity, the danger is greater. Keep this in mind.

    In point of fact, you should always attempt to have the athlete do the test that is

    most closely related to his or her event. For instance, we have had good luck

    modeling 10 minute power maximal power output in Iron distance triathletes by

    having them ride a 10 minute TT on a regular basis. However, for those athletes

    unwilling to do such long tests, a short test is about the best you can hope for, and

    the data has still proven extremely valuable.

  • I did the new warmup today, liked it, don't use HR, will continue with it unless there's a reason not to.
  • Couple observations about this:

    • For Outside riding I have some of my best workouts when I leave my house with the Rich Strauss mentality of riding my "default effort" of Zone 3 for the first 25-30 mins.  I don't get all anal about the numbers but when looking at the dial I try to make sure I'm @ or above 80%.  Then, I spin easy for a few minutes and start Inverval #1.  Point here is, I think the W/U 1.0 is a bit too easy and doesn't get the blood moving or bring the HR into "range".  I also think it's too short.  
    • I post some of my best numbers on days when my body should be trashed; and most of the time my HR is very low and it's hard to raise into the prescribed Zone of where it should be - hence the reason I ignore HR most of the time.  Point here is, I'm not sure I will be able to see valid or helpful trends in NP and AvgHR correlation over time on a 4' segment @ 80%. 

    To summarize, I like this idea of doing a warm-up that is longer and *could* be a little more challenging.  

  • So what would be the suggested "Daily Test"?  Is it the 4' @ 80%?  Or, would a 2' max effort be better?

  • There is no ONE best warm up. My point is that within any given session, we are X weeks away from the last bike/run test and yet we start every workout with that number in our heads. So my FTP is like 330 right now on the bike. I tested 6 weeks ago, and liked that test. BUT since then I have 6 weeks of VO2 work in my body and a pretty good head cold. Not to mention a pretty whack workload. So stress is high and rest is low.

    When I wake up tomorrow to do my 2 x 15', I have 330 on my brain and on the wall, but my body might have other plans. Is is possible to use a short effort (my choice was 4' indoors, could be 10' outdoors) at a specific wattage, noting HR / RPE / that buzz in your legs to adjust expectations? Sure TSS is cool to model / look at over time, but I'll listen to my legs first every time.

    I have had days where I have felt awful and dreaded getting on the bike...but the warm up was great...and I was encouraged, so I stuck my numbers and had a great session. The inverse has also been true, and my "test" warm up was an early warning sign for me...

    I thing the biggest application of this (for me) will be heading outside, when I have a 3.5 hour ride on the play with 75' at FTP and lots of 80-85% time...if my 10' warm up test sucks, I can make my adjustments BEFORE I dig an even bigger hole.
Sign In or Register to comment.