Seeking help with Z3 run pacing issues

ezellrh

Based on the last two weeks, I have an issue that I would love advice/suggestions/recommendations on from the HAUS members.  Based on a recent 5k run test (18:36), which I feel is an accurate assessment of my run fitness, my VDOT score bumped up to 54.  I'm currently in week 12 of the intermediate OS plan and am having trouble with the "Saturday" Z3 brick/2nd run.  Last week's wko was 40 minutes w/MS of Z3 and this week was 60 minutes w/MS of Z3.  Z3 = 6:32 pace for me, a pace which I feel is quite a bit hot for what I can hold for those assigned times (even with 10-15 minutes of warmup).  I blew up on both of these workouts, probably about half way through the assigned time.  This is also doing these workouts fresh, early in the day, not after a tough bike wko.  I've had good nuitrition and rest/sleep the last two weeks and kept the bike workouts pretty close to the assigned intensity, so I don't think these are the issues.

I realize that the VDOT paces based on 5k times are not transferable to longer race distances, but I can't hold this pace for the assigned workouts.  I don't have trouble with any of the other workouts, I can hold Z4 and Z5 for the assigned intervals with rest intervals, but long stretches of Z3 at 6:30's is too hot for me.  I honestly don't think I could get anywhere close to achieving this pace if I were to try after the hard Saturday bike work. 

Some basic stats for reference:  I'm 39, 6'3, 187 lbs.  I've been running consistently for 20+ years as running is a part of my job requirements (Marine).  Recent (within last 18 months) PRs of 17:40 3 mile, 1:29:xx 13.1, 3:30:xx 26.2, 9:45:xx 50.  I came into the HAUS fresh from 60-70 mile running weeks training for my most recent 26.2, so I don't think overall endurance is the issue. 

Hopefully this isn't a case of "Suck it up, take off the ballet slippers and put on your running shoes".  I've thought about modifying the workout to mile repeats at Z3 with rest intervals, but this seems an easier version of the typical Sunday workout.  I've also thought about dropping the pace... 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

rkling

That seems a bit strange to me. When you look at your 1/2 time of 1:29, that means you were averaging around 6:50/mile for 13.1 miles. So, 6:32 shouldn't be any problem. How long ago did you run your "recent" marathon? If it was within the last month, and you had a fairly hard effort, there is likely some residual muscle fatigue and damage, which would make running hard... well, hard. Z3 should be moderately hard but sustainable for long periods (it's supposed to be HMP pace).

If there are other factors (recent illness, physical stresses of job), that could also be playing a role in it.

Al Truscott

 Some thoughts:

• 12 weeks into the OS, there will be accumulated fatigue, so bricks should feel challenging.

• The Zones are a range, not an exact number, e.g., 6:30-6:50 for you.

• IMO, it's OK to to throw some easier stuff into those Saturday bricks, to get them done. Such as a 5  minute warm-up, and a 20-40 sec walking recovery interval after each mile. The short recovery interval really helps me, as it duplicates what I'm going to do in a race anyway, and allows me to feel as if I've acomplished the main purpose of the workout, which is to run hard off the bike.

Swanie

Don't discount the accumulated fatigue from 12 weeks of OS. You AREN'T going to make those run wko's easily. It's times during the training year like these that you might need some additional recovery time.

[Deleted User]

Roy - I am in the exactly same boat, but I do them as bricks. I hit paces/power zones on every other workout, but on those Saturday HMP runs I struggle. Last week after about a 5 min warmup I increased the pace to HMP and did not last long. Just not sustainable following the bike workout. What was interesting though was the longer I ran the better I felt. I spent the last 5 or 6 minutes at HMP and felt great. Maybe it's partially mental? Maybe I just need a longer warmup then gradually ramp up the pace, rather then abruptly kicking into HMP?

Jump4Joy19

I experienced the same thing as Jim. My first couple of miles, I get the lead-legs feeling and it takes a bit to shake that out. But if I hang in there, by mile 3 the legs have come around and I can easily hit HMP for the rest of the workout.

Al Truscott

Posted By Jim Daley on 22 Jan 2012 10:30 AM

... What was interesting though was the longer I ran the better I felt. I spent the last 5 or 6 minutes at HMP and felt great. Maybe it's partially mental? Maybe I just need a longer warmup then gradually ramp up the pace, rather then abruptly kicking into HMP?

I think that's the norm with bricks, and races as well - running form does come around evenutally, within 5-20 minutes of coming off the bike. I suspect there are two things going on. First, mentally, you are in a geared up mode from the hard bike effort, be it workout or race. So you think you SHOULD be able to just slam right into running hard/fast. But, second, the running specific muscles are not automatically in the same higher energy-production state. It seems (though I don't know why) that biking is not an adequate warm-up for running. So just as a stand-alone run requires a warm-up (and the harder the effort, the longer the warm-up), so too a brick or even a triathlon.

mgraffeo

I never, ever hesitate to back down the T/Sa bricks to Z2 if the Z3 is feeling more like the razor's edge. The point of those runs isn't to beat yourself (that's what the W/Su runs are for). They are there for frequency.

Once your Vdot is a bit over 50, Z3 and Z4 start to get really close, especially at your current zones. So, remind yourself that you wouldn't do that much Z4 work the day before a hard run workout. IMHO, most of the Z3 stuff in the bricks should be done closer to Z2 or somewhere in between Z2 and Z3, call it Z2+. Just remember, it's not supposed to feel like you're barely going to make it.

One other question: how are you fueling those workouts? I usually do mostly water on all of the OS workouts, but on the Saturday longer one, I'll take a Gu after the FTP work is done, before I do the Z3 work on the bike. Helps a lot when I hit the run.

ezellrh

All, thanks for the input and comments. After absorbing it all, I think I will continue to work at hitting the zones, but not feel crushed if I hit something a bit less.

@Richard- The pace you note is correct for my half pb, but that was in the middle of a run only BQ attempt work up (not successful), with a mini taper and no EN bike workouts (especially not a hard one hours before it).

@Mike- I typically haven't been fueling/prepping any NOS run wko's due to their relatively short duration, but I might start downing a GU prior to this wko.

Thanks again everyone. This is exactly why I came into the Haus!

Coach Patrick

@Roy, PLEASE FUEL ALL WORKOUTS. Before my 45-60' trainer rides I do a gel. Then I drink perform on the bike. Then I have a recovery chocolate milk after. If going to another workout, I skip the recovery beverage and do another gel, etc. These are calories you just burn up but they are critical for your engine to function!!!