Please help me adjust my VDOT
When I started the OS in January I used a VDOT based on several races I did in the November/December timeframe. The distances were 5k, 8k, 10k and 15k and the VDOTs were all around 48.5, except the last race, the 5k, which was closer to 48. The "consensus" of 48.5 put me about 1.5 points below my season-high, when I got a 50 VDOT and a 10k PB in an Olympic-distance tri way back in June. Being 1.5 lower on the VDOT was not surprising considering I put on 10lb after the tri season and didn't train very much.
The ~48.5 VDOT gave me a z4 of 7:01 and a z3 of 7:10.
Over the first few weeks of the OS I have dropped most of the 10lb and have begun to run intervals by RPE and hit my summer numbers pretty easily. Today I did a 60' run with 2x10.5'(4') and I ran both the intervals at 6:33. I also ran a 10' warmup at 6:24 and for the z3 time at the end I did 9' @6:59 and 11' @6:52. Overall including the recoveries (run at slower than 8:00) the run was 8.76 miles in 1:00:01, which would give me a VDOT of 49.5…EXCEPT I stopped twice for a minute or more each time to go through a tunnel.
I would not call the run today a "race effort". And in fact, the interval paces when put into a VDOT calculator are well below the 48.5 VDOT. It is only if you take the whole 8.76 mile run in totality that you'd say a new VDOT is warranted. But the stoppages mean I cannot really use this for a VDOT.
I am pretty sure my VDOT should get a bump but I wonder what a good SWAG would be. Should I ding myself 0.5 for the stoppages and call it 49? A good VDOT is important for me because on the days I'm not feeling like I can crush the intervals it keeps me honest and pushing.
Btw I cannot "test" for a VDOT until I run a race. Every solo test I have attempted has ended in epic failure. There is a 5k two weeks from now but truthfully it would mess up my whole weekend training so it's not worthit. I'm pretty sure you all can help me SWAG something.
Thoughts?
Many thanks,
Matt
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Comments
Matt - I worked backwards from your interval times and figure your at a VDOT of 53. A 53 gives you a TP pace of 6:32, a MP of 6:55 and LRP of 8:08. These are about the paces that you ran today and you admit it wasn't a "race effort", so you probably could go faster still. You clearly have the fitness you run at those paces for extended period time since you held that 6:33 pace today 2 x 10.5' AFTER a 10' WU @ 6:24. That's over 30' minutes at roughly 6:30 avg pace.
I'm not sure how you are coming up with a VDOT below 48.5 when you put those run intervals into the calculator.
Also, you have to remember that VDOT is for a stand alone run. If you were using a 10k PB in an OLY tri to get a VDOT of 50, I have no doubt that you can get 3-4 VDOT points higher in a run only effort, race or test. So it isn't surprising to me that dropping 10 lbs and some solid OS work that you are running @ a higher VDOT than 48.5.
I just have a couple of thoughts.
First, when you say you got a Vdot of 50 from a PB in an Oly, do you mean that you ran the 10 km in around 41:20? If so, your actual Vdot would have to be higher than 50 (assuming you could run a stand alone 10 km faster than you did in the Oly). My Oly run times are around my HMP speed. which would give you a Vdot around 52.5 or so — which have TP mile paces pf around 6:33.
Second, taking the 8.76 mile run in 60 mins gives your TP as 60/8.76 = 6:50 per mile which your RPE is telling you is too low. That is to be expected as the pace variations would definely hurt your speed over the 60 min run. But your Vdot would have to be higher than this indicates in any case because of the rests goinfg through the tunnel.
So my swag is that your Vdot must be around 52ish (or a bit higher).
I know we are supposed to test often but recently for a number of reasons I haven't done a run test and swagged it.
I find 2 x 1.5 miles (or 2 x 2 miles) @ TP a pretty good indicator of my Vdot (by working backwards) — I then check whether that swagged Vdot's HMP is a pace I can hold for 10 or 15 mins after TP intervals — based on both data points and RPE, I fine tune my estimate.
Oh, and BTW, I mintend to test soon and intend to test when my plans call for it as I am sold on the "only train at paces you have earned" approach.
What you're trying to figure out is what your traininbg paces should be without doing another test. Let's assume for a moment that you are as fit and fast as now as you were in June at that Olympic, and also (BIG assumption), that the course in that race was actually 6.2 miles/10K. My belief is that we race the run in a tri at one gear slower than a stand alone. E.g., a sprint is done at 10 K pace, an Oly @ stand alone half marathon pace, etc.
So a 41:20 in an Olympic tri would equate to a 1:27.15 half marathon, or 52.8 VDOT. Does that sound/feel about right for a training pace (you'll have to look up what the paces are), something you can replicate week in and week out at your current fitness level? Given your ability to hold pace for 1.5 mile intervals, that 53 VDOT is probably pretty darn close to where you are at now, IMO.
Really the question in my mind is if I should go to a 49.5 or a 49. Really it isn't a material difference I guess, although as I said, on the days you're dragging and fighting for your z4 cutoff, a few seconds per mile really makes a difference.
@ Al, just saw your reply as I was drafting mine when you posted. Clearly the olympic is not what I ought to reference...that was run in the midst of the HIM plan when I was in peak shape for the season. I am not at that fitness level now. But what I hear you say, and I get this from Bruce's reply as well, is that if you constantly are hitting, say, 6:35 or so on your z4 work -- day in and day out -- then your VDOT is probably in that ballpark. I'm not sure I get that, since your TP is supposed to be sustainable for an hour vs. for a few intervlas punctuated by recoveries -- but I sort of get it, because in the past when I go run a stand-alone 10k or 15k I seem to be able to hold paces that, when doing intervals, I think there is no chance I'll be able to hold for the subsequent interval, let alone a race where there are no recoveries.
Today was a good run. And has Bruce has noted in the JOS workout posts, I have been hitting the low 6:40s or better in most of by z4 work for the recent past. But I will play this a bit conservative since the last thing I need is a running injury. I'll go with a 49.5 and validate / revisit in my next open running race -- an 8k scheduled for March. And I'll let my z4 go faster than specified when warranted by RPE and how my legs are feeling.
Actually I'm tempted to get impatient and do a 5k that is in Chicago near my neighborhood in 2 weeks. But it would mess up my weekend training schedule since it's on a Saturday, and I'm not willing to let that happen. Maybe I'll run it as the scheduled brick after my 90' trainer ride. Given my history of setting running PBs off the bike, maybe I'll finally get a sub-20!!
Fair point. I'm looking for a local 5k, actually. For running, I don't test well in a non-race situation.
You've got a good SWAG surrounded. It's at least as high as 50, and not as high as 53. Pick a number (50, maybe 51) and train at it for the next 4 weeks. If it's a little too high and you're not recovering, back it down a point.
You're not going to use this number for any sort of race execution, so what you're looking for is what the training zones should be. Physiology isn't that precise. The difference between the training paces of 50 and 51 aren't so far different that you'd be leaving some training effect on the table if you went with the 50.
The trouble with going and testing is that if you have anything other than the perfect test, you'll be back in here with a 'what does my test mean' thread, listing out all of the caveats of sleep/hydration/caffeine level/motivation/suckitupitude/etc. And then you're nowhere closer to knowing what to do than you are today. I totally think you ought lay out a plan to get the solo 5k test out of permanent residency between the ears, but I don't think it's necessary to know what to do for now.
Based on my personal experience I believe this is tue once you are in regular training and closeout vdot is close to your race fitness. However if you took a break and are just returning to training or you are newer to training you may be able to improve faster than this.
My recommendation is to only go up 1 vdot point per month if you a swagging you vdot. If you think you have earned a larger increase then that, suck it up and go test to prove it.
Matt, think 49.5 or 50 would have been good for you to try for the next 4 weeks and reasses. It's the posts that suggest you could have have jumped from 48 to 53 or 52 that worry me because thIngs like that tend to come back and bite you months later after.
Sorry for typos. On iPhone while riding is the only tIme I have to read the forums right now