Too fast this whole time?
Interesting that I just realised I might be doing my run threshold intervals too fast ...for along time. My Z4 from the data tool is 6:04 and Z5 is 5:39. I typically target 5:40-5:45 for my 1-1.5 mile intervals. It's challenging but not brutal since it is slower than my 5k race pace. It also generally agrees with the "speed workout" mile pace for distance runners I'd get from the Mcmillan Running alculator....although mile cruise intervals are in the 5:54-6:02 range. So I've generally been going 10-15sec/mile too fast on these for the last 2 years...interesting. I don't think I'm having trouble recovering for subsequent workouts and it seems logical to me that I'd want to be somewhere between 5k and 10k race pace for intervals as short as 1-1.5 miles.
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I was guilty of/also doing the same...but took a step back to ask myself what I was doing...why is there Z4 v Z5 etc... ..and here is th rub...of course we are cabable of handling these paces...(Z5)...for these intervals...but the purpose of this phase of training is more Threshold...and that pace is about 20-30 sec. below 5k...this effor/work trains different systems....it really helps to read (or in my case reread) Daniels....I don't think it hurts in the long run (to mix in Z5 work now) however....it is not the same training effect(s)....I get antsy and have/wanted to run 800-1500's at Z5...but have decided to drink the Kool Aid and stick to the OS plan.....
Agree, but what nags me is that I think we need to do a little hacking here for faster runners. Even at Z4 I'd only be getting a total of 18min at pace for 2X1.5 miles. Yet when we do the cycling version of threshold we are looking at 30-40min at 95-100% threshold. I realize the stresses from running may be greater but it seems like too significant of a difference for the same philosophy. So I may start doing 2-2.5 mile intervals @ Z4 instead of 1-1.5 @ Z5.
Ironically, I just got back in from doing 2X 1.5 @ 5:45 and it was HARD today
I hear ya Joel...as a "runner" I would do Tempo and Speed Intervals throughout the year...usually as a longer tempo workout #1 on Tuesday and a Shorter Speed Interval session as #2 on Thursdays....with EN the periodization is Tempo/Threshold stuff focus for 6 weeks...shift to Shorter Speed focus...then back to Temp again...I think the main difference/benefit is that it takes into account the overall balance of work, especially its impact on cylce workouts....so I'm trying to 'be good" and follow the plan this year...because last year I kinda continued my self-styled running program rather than follow the OS....
Again...I think its fine to mix it up...as long as it doesn't detract from your ability to complete the other (bike) work sessions....and your able to handle/recover.
FYI - just to put into context... my current Z5 is 6:03 ...so I am a little slower than you (though I ran 5:30 in my 20-30's and am anxious to get back the and crack 19 for my 5k ...but am plaing the EN gameplan and focusing Triathlon this year..rather than run...I hope it works...for me there are big gains to be made on the bike....and I know I can still handle/improve on the run.
Also, Z5 is used for VO2 workouts but we're talking roughly 5k race pace an I don't think that is fast enough to really be considered VO2. Many people are out there running 20-25min. If you can maintain the effort for that duration it's not doing much for VO2. I'd think somewhere between mile and 3k race pace would be more appropriate, no?
The plans are built around doing the minimum necessary to get faster, not doing the maximum possible. Each of us has our own calculation to do as far as going above and beyond.
Runners north of 60 Vdot may well have to do more and faster running. We never do Daniels' repetition pace, or faster than 5k. You're absolutely right that running 1/2 mi at 5k pace isn't actually a VO2 stimulus. For many of us, it's enough to make us faster. You might require more.
If you're doing it, and not getting hurt, and it's not thrashing you for your bike days, then go for it.
Rather than focus on the amount of work you're doing within each training session as a marker of difficulty, I think it's important to look at the outcomes-your race results. If your bill if you're able to get faster over time, and across your races, the more the train its own fiber zone for is pretty much moot. Even given the limiting nature of zone 5 efforts, there are many other ways to gain training stress on the run outside of running that fast. I personally like to insert a lot of zone 3, or half marathon pace effort, into my training as a means of adding stress with out adding danger.
I think the approach you are suggesting bodes well for a short training window, or for someone using a shorter distance training plan. As in you might be training for a half or an Olympic distance race. I think the long-term cost of doing that kind of intensity, in an experienced runner, could lead to a faster plateau or burnout. That said, if you can beat the system, go for it!
@CoachP - I am a bit confused by the statement highlighted above. Should that say "don't"? I ask because the OS plans I am looking at all have the intervals as distances (e.g. 1/2 mile, 1 mile, etc).
1. Daniels' workouts that include cruise intervals are just punishing...a different league than the EN runs. Think 6x 1 mile @ TP with 1' recoveries, 4x 2 miles with 2' recoveries , that sort of thing. The EN program is not doing that, but for experienced and fit runners it is certainly possible to train that way without injury. Try doing THOSE at materially faster than your z4 and you won't make it to the end of the workout!!
2. In the EN workouts there is an emphasis on "remainder at z3". At my 49-ish VDOT my z3 is within 10 sec/mi of z4. Joel's will be even closer. So essentially the workout is asking you to do a LOT more time at or near TP than just the stated intervals. When I have a workout that's 3x 1 mile @z4 I'll commonly (a) do an extra interval and/or (b) run the z3 portion at z4. Like Joel I tend to run the z4 portions closer to 5k pace depending on how I feel (I'm fairly RPE-based once I've met the minimum pace for the interval), but I sure can't do that for all the "extra time"...that's going to be TP and not much faster.