The "No Bricks" Thread
Team,
Now that all of our 2012 training plans are live for the members, you are all working yourselves through the changes we made in these plans from 2011. Probably our most significant change is our approach for brick runs.
Please go here to read our overall view on bricks runs and long course triathlon training
Rethinking the Value of the Brick in Long Course Triathlon
Next, be sure to download and read the .pdf linke from the article.
Finally, please find some time to listen to the podcast that Patrick and I recorded, explaining these shift and our experiences in much more detail.
The purpose of this thread then is for us to discuss this issue and answer your questions. This forum thread is linked to the article above, creating one neat lil' package in which to park all things non-brickitude.
Thanks!
Comments
Sorry to disagree here -- and my disagreement won't leave EN forums -- but for my schedule personally that's where I'm at.
Matt,
Yep, those are valid points! The key points that we want the team to be on the same page with is:
Therefore, the application of this is:
Finally, I don't think it this brick/non-brick things makes "that" much of a difference...with the exception of the Saturday long bike. Our Race Prep 4hr Satuday bike for IM athletes is a LEGIT session. Doing a 20-30' run off that bike makes it much more legit and will be slow relative to a rested run. By contrast, I did a lot of Saturday sessions this past summer as 45' run first, at a solid long run - marathon pace session. I found this had very little to zero impact on my ability to meet my goals on the Saturday ride...but I had to be on my game re fueling before, after this run and during the ride. I my opinion this 45'/4hr combination was much better, in a number of ways, than a 4hr/30' combination.
I think one of the biggest driving factors behind this decision has been the fact that both Rich and I have very flexible schedules. As such, we are able to move our runs and bikes into in order that we feel is “optimal.” And what we realized this past year was that runs done after long bikes, particularly the 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 hour, heavy interval, EN–type rides...well, these runs were less than ideal. :-) For most of our members, they were done smack in the heat of the day...after a full week of high-intensity work. The performance was sub–par, and the stress was almost so high as to impact the Sunday bike ride.
So reflecting on our own experience, it makes sense to split these workouts up in a way that allows you to perform both as optimally as possible. There will always be time to do these workouts in the order they happen on race day. But as history has shown, the more quality work you can do in preparation for your race, the better that race will be.
So yes to what works for you, but for everyone else if you can try it...you might never go back!
I have a reasonably flexible schedule but still feel bricking is a great ROI and still plan to include some bricks but will try some runs before rides but as R points out the need to fuel does complicate things a bit but should be achievable as it is easier for me to digest on the bike.
What I did:
I realize I'm not the most experienced to weigh into this, as I am relatively new to multi-sport and slow. The slowness is what makes my experience a little more relevant to the "average" crowd.
Then I transitioned to the HIM plan for Augusta and I went with the "I've got to run OFF the bike" mentality.
Personally, I welcome the change and will still do a few bricks based on "life-timing" but not as a "magical training/fitness bullet" that most think it is.
Opinions from a BOP-er.
Having said that, I do believe they have some value as a training aid. Learning to run after the bike, I think can be a valuable technique for teaching an individual about stride length and cadence after biking. This is especially important during the first part of the run. The length of the run is ultimately dependent upon a persons fitness and ability to maintain good form. Brick workouts need to really only be done 1-2 x per month. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
Yep, and we agree. But in our experience, this is a "yep, I get it, got it, don't need to experience or practice it all that much."
Also, we will give you very specific pacing guidance for the first 6-7 miles for your Ironman or ~3 miles for your half. One very significant and consistent feature of this period of the run is a disconnect between RPE and pace. That is, it will feel easy but you are in fact running to fast. Or rather you're running much faster than it feels you are. So one significant goals of our race rehearsals is for you to experience it, see it, expect it on race day, realize it's normal and then $@%^ing slow down to the pace we tell you, not think that a trillion dollars worth of GPS satelittes are suddenly wrong, just for you
.
During last seasons IM Plan, I noticed on Saturday that that my Run off the bike was usually total CRAP. As bike time was at a premium, i tried to do as much WORK on the bike during the time I had. I averaged 3:30 for the saturday rides not including RRs. Get of the bike, change, go for a "CRAP" run, just seemed like it wasn't working for me. The result was I started to forget the run and spent the extra time on my bike. I ended up going from a 3 hour ride to a 3:30 ride. I was already on the bike so might as well just keep on riding. The downside of this, Looking back, was missing some benefits of run frequency. Good quality 30' run goes a long way IMO.
Like the idea of running first before the bike. I could see myself doing this for sure. Much easier to get up a little earlier to go for a good quality run before heading out on the bike. One of my constraints is the desire to get back to the house early enough to be able to do something with the family. On the bike by 7, home by 10:30, Stretch, EAT, Shower...ready for "family time" by 11:30 or 1200. Not necessarily Awake and excited, but available.
I can see the physical benefits of doing Sat ride in the morning and then put the running shoes in the the evening. I will certainly give it a try as i am really trying to make a breakthrough on my run this year. Better quality, May help losen the legs up from the morning effot. What might kill me is the mental aspect. I just went 3-4 hours on my bike and now x hours later I need to go for a xx minute run...For me there was a mental celebration after getting these long efforts done each and every weekend. I would typically drive 5 minutes to my training sight on Saturday for my bikes. The 5 minute ride back home having gone 3:30 on my bike was awesome knowing I was done for the day...All I had to do was eat and stretch...
Yep...for me the Saturday PM run just isn't going to happen. I'm too good at talking myself out of doing anything after about 5pm
1) OS / SC / HIM plans are a very different beast than IM plans. If you're doing a non-IM plan, then make your own assessment about what you can and can't fit in. Personally, I'm bricking every T/Sa in the OS, because I don't have another workout window in the day, and because I prefer to keep my workouts to a single wardrobe before April/May.
2) The IM is a different beast, altogether
The problem:
the IM marathon is hard, therefore you need a good deal of run training
However:
running long has too much recovery cost to do often
running fast would work, but you're often too tired from other sessions to do it
therefore, you can:
do what everybody else does, and run as much as you can on exhausted legs
-or-
try to find as many opportunities to run when your legs aren't trashed, and run just hard enough to not affect the downstream sessions
The last point there is the hard one. What RnP have proposed is one of the rare out-of-the-box thought processes in triathlon today. It's a potential solution to a real problem, and could help a ton. Definitely worth trying for IM'ers.
Mike, excellent summary!
Yep, that last point on your list was what I did this summer. By not running bricks, running in the AM, etc, I was able to string together a ludicrous number of consecutive/nearly consecutive runs and very consistent high volume (for me) run weeks. I suck at keeping a log so I can't give you specifics, but I recall several times where I had think back very hard to find the last day I had not run.
And this is N = 1 but I'm sure others have had simiar experiences:
IMO, those two items are intellectual...things. That is, I knew it was going to happen, expected it, and was determined to deal with it, and not screw up. In other words, I don't need much practice in just shutting up and doing what I'm told. Related to this is the crappy feeling in your legs coming off the bike and getting them to run. We've all done it, whether in training and racing. In my opinion this is very much an "I get it, I have a strategy for dealing with it, I don't really need to practice it, done."
Confession time -- As much as I have tried, I have been less than 50%, probably closer to 30%, completion rate on the "Run_Second" saturday runs. If I don't Brick it, it pretty much ain't gonna happen (motivation, SAUs, etc.)
That being said, this past Monday I gave the Run_First plan a try as I had to rearrange my OS plan due to travel. Here was the day's plan:
I honestly expected to fall apart on the bike. It didn't happen. Of course the bike work felt a little bit harder than I think it would have had I not run immediately prior, but not nearly as much as I expected.
My takeaway for the remainder of my OS is that I will try to Run_First / Bik_Second with no appreciable delay between the two; only long enough to change (if required).
Clearing through my in box, I found last week's team update with the pointer to this topic. I've been ignoring this issue ever since it surfaced last year, but now that I'm back in structured training, I'll have to make a decision. So I read the discussion, gave it some thought, and here's my thought process:
• It would be easy for me to feel: I've done OK (pretty great, actually) with what I've done so far, why should I change anything?
• When I do a brick after a hard interval session on the trainer, or a long ride outside, it's hard, but I feel so powerful when I'm done (exhausted, but powerful), like i've really accomplished something.
• OTOH, it's probably very important for someone like me (many years in the sport, solid, consistent results) to not get stuck in a rut; changing up training patterns and emphases is a good thing in and of itself, and may be the only way I can improve my performances. "Keep training the same way, and you'll keep getting the same results."
• I'm pretty good already at running off the bike; I doubt I need any remedial work in that area
• Mike G's comments make a lot of sense (as usual). After my first running injury in over a decade, I'm looking for all ways to prevent a recurrence.
• I need every trick I can uncover to retard the inevitable degradation of my speed.
• I'm in the team PRECISELY because RnP are continuously improving their product, AND they have beta tested this idea for me; and, like them, I now have a lot of free time to devote to training any which way I care to.
So, why not give it a try?
You make a good case Al. Again a sensible, logical approach.
I might be able to manage a run first from time to time but for me running first thing in the morning is usualy at least 3 miles of uncomfortable and slow slogging before I start to get into any sort of a groove. I'm able to roll into a ride a lot easier fresh out of bed.
And I'm definitely not gonna be able to pull off a Sat afternoon run. Once I finish my morning ride I typically pack the cooler with beers and hit the beach for the day.
This post came from my son's coach (who is not Al Lyman) - i have one of Al's DVD's on functional core strength - good stuff - seems like his thoughts have some merit so i thought i'd throw them up here for others to consider - i'm a 2nd yr tri guy so i'm like a sponge reading as much as i can
BRICK RUNS IN TRIATHLON TRAINING: CRITICAL TO SUCCESS OR A WASTE OF TIME?
by Coach Al Lyman, CSCS, FMS, HKC
Recently, there has been debate in triathlon circles about the benefit of brick runs. A new school of thought has swept in claiming that running off the bike in training serves no purpose and is of little use. After years of thought on this topic as a coach, and much personal experimentation as an athlete and movement specialist here in our gait analysis lab, here is my perspective on the debate.
In brief, I believe brick runs have great value, but not necessarily for the reasons most people think. In my opinion, the issue of running off the bike should not be presented as a training dilemma or time-saving problem to be solved. Brick runs, in fact, present the opportunity to solve a very important physical MOVEMENT issue for triathletes.
What I know from my work in our gait analysis lab, and confirmed from my own experience, is that it is VERY challenging to get the posterior chain-the glutes, in particular-working properly to be able to run well after cycling. I have personally spent a lot of time practicing and experimenting with ways to trigger better glute activation and involvement before a brick run. I have worked on correct hip flexor stretching, and various dynamic stretching of the entire anterior hip region in order to better activate the posterior chain. I can tell you with certainty that it is very difficult to get the back side of our body going after being on a bike for any length of time. And, to be clear, to run to your potential your posterior chain-including the glutes-has to not only be firing, but must be strong.
But why do the glutes stubbornly refuse to activate off the bike? It is due to a real physiologic phenomenon known as reciprocal inhibition. Reciprocal inhibition causes the muscles on one side of a joint to relax to accommodate contraction on the other side of that joint. The posture of cycling involves sustained hip flexion, making the hip flexors short and tight. Reciprocal inhibition then causes the hip extensors, especially the gluteus maximus, to shut down markedly. As we discuss further, you will see how brick runs work effectively to counter this phenomenon.
The discoveries I have made in my own training, as well as what I see in the athletes I coach, prove to me that the following elements are absolutely crucial to one's ability to optimize the run portion of a triathlon:
- You must first understand how important the glutes are in running. And its NOT enough that your glutes are strong (although they MUST be STRONG), they must also be able to act as the PRIMARY extendor of the hip, which is their role. Sometimes the hamstring or low back, due to compensation, tries to over take the role of the glute. First order of business for you is to eliminate compensation wherever possible so that the glutes are doing their job, and then via a platform of functional strength training, get them strong.
- You must understand that the glutes work to create hip extension when running to power you down the road. When coming off the bike, the glutes are not doing that job well at all due to reciprocal inhibition. The longer the ride, the greater the inhibition. Therefore…
- It is imperative to PRACTICE running off the bike frequently to develop a precise, in-tune FEEL of what it takes to get the glutes working effectively. How can you do that?
- Engage in kinesthetic and proprioceptive awareness when you run. Make thoughtful yet subtle adjustments in run posture, especially early on in the run, and periodically throughout the run. Lead with the hips, not the torso; shoulders down/elbows back; stand tall and lengthen your spine are just some of the cues to use.
- Employ a higher stride rate (at least 90 to 95 stride cycles per minute) and a "shorter" stride to allow for the awareness articulated above and to reduce ground impact forces.
- In your training, every few times you do a brick run, take a few minutes before going out on the run, to moderately and smartly stretch the flexors of the hip. This should be done correctly, from a neutral pelvic position, and done dynamically and with control.Own this movement pattern before running.
- Begin your run out of T2 very conservatively. Allow a few minutes for the body to "find" its correct running form naturally. You want your running to be AUTHENTIC, which is to say driven primarily by the glutes. If you start running too intensely or too fast, it is less likely the run will be glute driven-and the risk of poor performance and injury increase.
- Practice brick runs frequently, BUT combine the running with the proper awareness we discussed. If you do that, the authentic run groove can be established more easily and more quickly.
I am not saying that frequent brick runs, in and of themselves, fix the inherent problem we are discussing here. If your butt is weak and asleep, then no amount of bricks can change that, and in fact, will only groove poor movement and inefficient running. Running off the bike alone cannot and will not make you a stronger and faster triathlete.
What I am saying is that as a triathlete, you must first understand how crucial an issue this is. The inherent challenges that exist when going from cycling to running ARE NOT about the training effect of bike to run, but are about quality MOVEMENT. Your glutes must be strong, and they must fire in order for you to run well. If you do the work and strengthen the posterior chain, then the last piece of the puzzle is using the brick run often and effectively to groove the transition from strong powerful cycling to strong, powerful fatigue-resistant, injury-resistant running.
In the end, brick runs help you address a MOVEMENT ISSUE crucial to your triathlon success. It is not a "training" issue. And it is a real mistake to view brick runs as unnecessary or expendable.
It is clear to me that coaches who diminish the importance of brick runs simply do not understand physical movement, where true running speed really comes from, the importance of the glutes, and the real impact of reciprocal inhibition. Frequent brick runs, built upon authentic movement and gluteal strength, will lead to better, more efficient, more powerful, more skilled running off the bike.
I believe it is something every triathlete benefits from when approached in the correct way, and with clear intent.
Al Lyman
I can totally see Coach Al's point, but I can also see Coach R's points. The guys at PAP have tried to help me "Rebuild" my running form through glute activation and core stability. All of what they told me in their lab came out in his piece above because they truly believe in the value of functional movement and glute activation. Coach Al above believes that you have to continually train your body to build up the muscle memory to run properly after your glutes have essentially been asleep for hours.
I think Coach Rich is saying, my body will work that out over the first few miles in a race and all you have to do is be disciplined and follow the script for the first several miles and the rest will take care of itself. I get that Coach R is saying you will gain better run fitness (and be less prone to fatigue and run injury throughout the season) if you get more "quality" run miles/time in when your legs are less fatigued and this "quality" run time will give you better overall fitness to ultimately lead to the optimal goal of a lower total race time.
They're probably both right. Unfortunately for me, my life will dictate what I am actually able to do. When I split them up, I almost never get the 2nd workout done (time does not allow). Actually, many of the days, time doesn't even allow for the Brick workouts, but I do the best I can. I will probably try the "run before" method on the weekends and likely squeeze in a short brick run half of the time on the weekday workouts. I think this is as much art as science and unfortunately sometimes you have to paint with the pallet your life allows you to have. Two people that I totally respect (Coach P and Coach Al) can come down on different sides of a healthy discussion. We're all here to learn, absorb, and do the work to get faster (or less slow depending on your situation).
there's little help, and possibly harm in running on tired legs, especially if it means that your form goes to crap and you're running slowly.
Reasonable people can disagree about what to do about that. If your form isn't good, and your glute activation isn't good, then you should be working on that. And when you're ready, you should be doing some runs to teach yourself how to get into that place off the bike. For me, that's part of what I focus on when I brick in the OS. However, if you're not actively working on getting better glute involvement, then no amount of brick running is going to magically 'fix' you. In fact, it's probably counter-productive.