Descending hill climbs

dakota3810

 Hi Team

Looking for advice on how to gain confidence descending long steep hills.  I love to climb and planning a hill climb race this summer with average 12% grade.  So, need to train with some repeats, but coming down repeatedly I dread.  I don't have an issue with moderate grades cruising down up to 40 mph, I tend to seize up on the bike descending the steeps that go for a distance.

Suggestions on how to descend and gain the confidence. 

Thanks

Christine 

Al Truscott

 I don't know if I have any advicve, just empathy. For years, I did Xterra triathlons, where younger, braver racers - slower swimmers and climbers than I - would routinely zoom past me as I crept down amongst the rocks in constant fear of falling and breaking my hip. Yesterday, while riding the IM Hawaii bike course between Kawaihae and Hawi, I was once again reminded of how much I dislike that section, with its cruel sidewinds making treacherous what would ordinarily be a gentle downhill.

Since my goal for this year is to ENJOY my race in Hawaii this October, I've got to find a way past my worries about the treachery of gravity. I have no fear at all going down a bumpy, tree-lined ski slope @ 40-50 mph, but throw in some asphalt in the landing zone, and I slow way down.

There's a quote from Plutarch I used to keep on the bulletin board in my office, about how to face your fears. He makes an analogy with helping small children overcome their fear of the masks worn at holiday time, by letting them hold the mask, turning it over in their hands, and seeing it is not really fearsome at all.

The point is, we've got to face our fear directly, not avoid it, and desensitize ourselves to its power. So the task for us is to find some slopes of gradually increasing scariness (or breeziness, in my case), and practice them at gradually increasing speeds. Familiarity and repetition, not avoidance, may be the key.

Also, I recognize I need to get myself into the right frame of mind. I suspect that will require an increase in focus on the task at hand (keeping the bike stable), rather than giving into the intutitive desire to say, "Well, I;m going downhill now, so I can mentally relax."

dakota3810

Thank you for your reply. Funny me too, I have no trouble descending the steeps skiing at speed, have skied down Tuckerman's Ravine (Mt. Washimgon's infamous bowl) several times. Good advice with finding hills of increasing grades and becoming famiilar with repetition. Need to visualize my skis strapped on verse shoes on pedal clips I guess and "tune in to the task at hand"

Scott Alexander

After a few close calls on fast descents a few years ago, I'm a weenie - but am getting my 'legs' back.

For me, building back up your confidence by actually doing it, is key.

My hints:
-I get my butt off the saddle, and move it slightly back, hovering over the saddle.
-Hug the top tube with my knees.
-If I'm on my road bike, I'll go into the drops, as it's a lot more "secure" grasp than on the top or on the brake hoods.
-Constantly move your your eyes and focus, from right in front of you to slightly ahead.
-As I learned in my crash last year, don't follow someone too close going downhill.
-confidence in your equipment. x2!!! If your bike rattles, squeaks, etc, you're less likely to push it. Make sure your wheels and tires are in good shape, as any vibration from the road will make you painfully aware you're going downhill...FAST! Take good care of your bike, and it'll take good care of you.

I'd be interested in hearing some tips from CoachR, as he's a MONSTER on the descents!

Keith Wick

I would disagree with Scott on gettng your butt off the saddle. You want as many contact points as possible on your bike as this helps to control it. The rear wheel will hop more over a bump if there is no resistance on it (the resistance being your butt)

jhbinsc

I also like to feel "planted" on the saddle but I do shift backwards a bit on saddle and clamp top tube w/ my knees to reduce the dreaded "speed wobble"!

Also look where you WANT to go not where you DON'T want to go. Surprisingly effective advice.

Peter Greagg

x2 what Jeff said

[Deleted User]

I'll empathize too as I love long climbs, but hate descending. I find that looking farther ahead on the road makes it a lot less scary than focusing on part of the road right in front of your wheel, as it's not as apparent that you're zooming past stuff. Also I tend to ignore my Garmin while I'm descending so I don't get freaked out by how fast I'm going, and I guess that makes it safer too.

mcstrangelove

Great discussion.  This is the only paralyzing aspect of triathlon for me and I am trying to overcome it by riding more descents this season.  

Curious though about the butt ON saddle vs. butt OFF saddle.  Some roadies & mt bikers suggested for me to keep my butt off the saddle with my weight on the pedals (side by side).  I tried this several times and it does feel like I have more control.  Wondering what the negatives to that are?

Also, on a tri bike, my weight is naturally shifted towards the front of the bike so my arms/hands bear a lot of weight and get fatigued/numb after 15-20 min of a descent.  Any solutions to that?  I'm certainly not experienced enough to shake my arms out during a fast descent!

Lastly, when do you apply the brakes?  Above 30mph the fear genes kick in HARD and my bike literally begins to shake & quake and become VERY unstable (not sure if it's me or my bike).  At that speed, it's hard to slow the bike without the brakes overheating the rims.  What is the best way to slow your descent...especially if you know there is a stop light approaching a few miles ahead?

Thanks for this discussion!

mgraffeo

Tri bike descending is a unique beast.

1) if I know that there's almost zero chance of needing to touch the brakes, I'm in the aerobars, tucked hard.

2) otherwise, I'm on the hoods, crouched as low as I can get, with my butt off the seat, and as far back as I can get it. You need the weight distribution to be as far back as possible to improve the likelihood that your brakes will stop you. MTB'ers tell you to drop your weight back to prevent doing an endo (flip over your front wheel), but most tri bike brakes aren't strong enough to do that to you. Braking will put much more weight distribution on the front wheel, so you do want to get your weight back.

3) If there's no cars, others to worry about, I never touch my brakes, regardless of speed. But, going 50mph doesn't scare me. Why? Can't tell you, other than that I've done a lot of it, and find it exhilarating. Much like skiing, comfort only comes with practice.

BTW, speed wobble is a very real phenomenon, and especially prominent on tri bikes. If you start to notice your bike wobble, press the top tube between your knees, and make sure to firmly exert control over your handlebars (ie. don't squeeze them tighter, but apply some pressure forward on them as well as to the outside, to make sure they can't wiggle in your hands). My tri bike will wobble like crazy if I don't do those things.

Mike

Coach Rich

Quick drive by, then I'll tighten this up and put it in the wiki.

Descending Quickly

Rule #1: Never descend faster than your ability to react (given your skill, equipment, road conditions, etc) to what you CAN'T see.

Rule #2: Look as far through the corner as you can and look where you want to go. Don't look at where you don't want to go. The bike will go where your eyes are looking. Think "look at the rock, hit the rock," which is to say that if you need to suddenly avoid something, avoid it by NOT LOOKING AT IT. Instead, look for/at your escape path. Don't fixate on the target.

By looking as far through the corner as you can, you give yourself many, many feet to make small corrections to solve a problem many, many feet away. If you're looking 6-10ft in front of your wheel...you only have 6-10ft to make a BIG correction = not good!

Rule #3: Seen rule #2

Rule #4: choose the line through a corner that gives you the best visibility through the corner, giving more time and space to adjust to what you can't yet see.

Notes within The Rules above:

Speed

Speed is relative. We all reach a speed at which our spidey senses start go off, we reach the brakes, begin to get skeered, etc. The only ways to increase the speed at which this happens is to absorb my tips below and then, through exposure to greater and greater speeds with your increased skillset and confidence, just get used to going faster and faster. Before long your "oh shit!!" will become just another day.

Body Position

• Butt off the saddle a bit, and weight shifted back a bit, maybe gripping the nose of your saddle with your thighs.
• Arms and elbows loose.
• Think of the above as giving the bike a suspension, of your legs, arms, and giving he bike some room to move round a bit under you and for you to move your weight around a bit on the bike.

Braking

• Do your best to get your braking done before the turn, while the bike is upright. When the bike is upright you can apply 100% of the available traction of the tires to slowing the bike down...braking. As the bike leans over, a percentage of that available traction is now being claimed by lateral forces, keeping the bike from sliding sideways off the road = less traction available to slow the bike down. Whenever possible, in all situations, do your best to separate the action of turning the bike and braking.
• When braking with the bike upright, your braking should be about 70/30, front to rear: as you brake, your weight shifts forward, pressing the tire harder into the road = increasing the friction and traction (and don't forget that you're also point downhill which increases this effect). At the same time, the backend lightens up, reducing the traction available on the back wheel. If you do 70/30 back to front, you don't have as much stopping power and you risk sliding the rear wheel.
• If you are on the brakes in a corner, I recommend you reverse this 70/30 and use the back brake more. I'll "trail" the back brake in a corner, maybe.
• Sort of advanced: start braking the front with about 50% of your braking force, to speak, then increase it to what you want. What you're doing her is "loading the suspension," giving your weight a fraction of a second to shift forward on the front wheel and build the amount of traction available to the front.

Why back vs front in a corner?

A rear wheel skid is recoverable, usually. But a front wheel skid, in a corner is usually instant on the deck.

But, again, you avoid all of this jazz by getting your braking done BEFORE the turn!

Weight distribution and more body position stuff

• Inside pedal up (ie, left pedal is up in a left turn, right in a right)
• Weight on the outside pedal
• Press on the inside handlebar (press on left hoods in a left turn, etc)

Kinda advanced stuff, within the above, bonus if you can do it:

• Point your inside knee into the turn
• Get lower on the bike, lowering your center of mass.

Hoods or drops? Personal preference, but:

• Drops: more aero, help you lower your center of mass on the bike, but...your fingers are now placed at the far end of the brake lever/fulcrum = you have MUCH more stopping power down there than in the hoods. This can be good or bad: good if you need to and know how to slow down quickly. But bad if you reflexively jerk the brakes at every little thing, increasing the likelihood of applying too much brake and losing traction. If you have an aggressive drops position on your bike your can really work your neck in a long descent as you crank your neck to look as far forward as you can.
• Hoods: more comfortable, probably better visibility, less neck fatigue for long descents, but decreased stopping power...which can be good and bad per above.

So...to put it all together, Coach Dick in a descent:

• Butt off the saddle, weight shifting back, knees and elbows loose, gripping nose with my thights, maybe top tube with knees. I prefer to be very loose on the bike and let it/me move separately most of the time. Then, coming up on a corner:
• I get all of my braking done with the bike is upright, 70/30 front to rear. If I still need to bleed some speed in the corner I come of the front brake and feather the back a bit.
• Eyes as far through the corner as I can see, choosing the line that gives me the best visibility, not neccesarily the fastest line.
• Inside pedal up, outside down, weight on the outside pedal, pressing down on the inside handlebar.
• Inside knee pointed through the corner, where I want to go.
• Upper body very low, to reduce center of mass. When I'm really hanging it out, that inside knee will be about half way up my inside upper arm.

We'll save chin on the stem, nuts on the top tube, ass under the nose of the saddle for our next class .

Sawiris and I both have helmet cams and can descend Glendora Mtn Road as fast as some of the sportbike motorcycles. When I get my mojo back (a little skittish right now), I'll have him follow me down and I'll demo all of this.

 

 

Coach Rich

All of the above applies to the tri bike the but the tri bike, due to weight distribution, wheelbase, etc, is generally twitchier and less confidence inspiring. My road bike turns on rails. I can descend just as quickly on the P3 but I'm hanging it out there a bit more, REALLY need to be on my game, etc.

Dino Sarti

I live I the hills and descend quite a bit. The only reason I drag my big butt up the hill is to go down fast. As a kid in the early 80's we would go down grades averaging 10% or better on skate boards, usually laying down, but often standing. Without helmets! My parents were hippies....

I would completely +1 everything Rich said. Worth reading again.

I find I descend really fast when I sort of "use the force". Get into a flow or a rythme. Stay calm, keep my eyes and head up. Remember, "look down, fall down". There is nothing good to see right in front of the wheel any way. You saw it already 5-10 seconds ago because you are looking down range.

I get my butt off the seat and shift the bike around under me. I sort of throw it around turns holding a line I have chosen in advance. I will sometimes drag my rear brake through a turn, but never the front. That is road rash city. Then I really love peddling hard out of the turn to "get back on the gas fast" especially if I had to drag the brake into the turn. This is made easy and if you are out of the saddle in the big ring and the small cog....

Coach Rich

Posted By Christine JANKINS on 28 Feb 2012 08:52 PM

 Hi Team

Looking for advice on how to gain confidence descending long steep hills.  I love to climb and planning a hill climb race this summer with average 12% grade.  So, need to train with some repeats, but coming down repeatedly I dread.  I don't have an issue with moderate grades cruising down up to 40 mph, I tend to seize up on the bike descending the steeps that go for a distance.

Suggestions on how to descend and gain the confidence. 

Thanks

Christine 

 

Christine,

If you're talking about long, for the most part straight, non-technical downhills, it's really all about what Al has said -- you need to just get used to faster and faster speeds. You only get there by taking yourself to that place where you get nervous...then staying there, then going a little faster, a little faster, etc.

Related to this is the fact that none of us are being paid to fly down a mountain. Around here we have a saying "he descends like a breadwinner."

[Deleted User]

Great question Christine and all good responses.

Rich..... Should not speak for everyone but your posts are exactly the reason I joined this team. Thanks. I hope to practice some of these techniques in 2 weeks when I am in Tucson for my 'big bike week'. Wish me luck ;-)

Coach Rich

Posted By Ian Coleman on 06 Mar 2012 07:06 PM

Great question Christine and all good responses.



Rich..... Should not speak for everyone but your posts are exactly the reason I joined this team. Thanks. I hope to practice some of these techniques in 2 weeks when I am in Tucson for my 'big bike week'. Wish me luck ;-)

 

Thanks! Being able to ride a bike, well, in all situations just makes the entire experience fun. I have a LOT of experience and training with two wheels, from 26 (!) years of motorcycling and 13 cycling. I like sharing this stuff.

But I still can't trackstand, though I've been meaning to learn for a long time.

Paul Scholz

 @ Rich -- track standing on a fixie is easier ... ... ... 

dakota3810

Thank you all for your great responses! Part of my hesitance is I was unsure about body position, weight distribution and braking. Rich your explanation in each of these areas is extremely helpful. I am looking forward to working on building up my confidence and enjoying the flight down the hill. There is this hill with lots of turns that I ride with some of my guy friends we do a couple repeats, it is a 12-15% grade. I beat them up the hill, then they fly by me going down, while I whimp out, then the second ascent I am left behind trying to catch up....not this year!

shawn702

@ Christine Thank You For Asking This Question


Going to put this into my training to become better at descending. I would love to see a video of this, maybe explain it while on the bike trainer? Outstanding responses!!!!! This is why EN is what it is today.