Not enough recovery?
Hey Folks! Posted this in my outseason group discussion but wanted to throw this out there to get some feedback - sorry for the rambling.
My weekly workouts have been going well - hitting the targets on the bike and trying to stay consistent with the running but sometimes difficult due to weather. Anyway, I've been substituting my Saturday bike interval session by participating in a weekly indoor computrainer racing series (currently in stage 10 of 23 stages - done on computrainers vs 6 other guys per heat, on varying course profiles and usually take from 45 to 55 minutes at race effort) and the last 5 weeks, my AVG Power for sessions have been dropping like a stone!! First race was an abysmal 206 AVG watts, started the outseason and climbed to 234 and now I've declined over the last 5 stages back down to 215 or basically where I started on my very first test. I hate always referring to "the good ole days", but when I did my last IM in 2007, my FTP was considerably higher and it took around 8 to 10 weeks for some serious adaptation, in the right direction, to occur. My watts per kg used to be around 4.22 and although I'm about 3lbs heavier, it's dropped down to around 2.9.
What is most discouraging is, guys that I used to trounce in previous years are now beating me by almost 2 to 3 minutes and their wattages are +20 watts and improving over mine.
I assumed this race series would be a good benchmark of my progress over the off-season and while they are all doing the traditional zone 1 / base build stuff that I used to do with them, I have been preaching the EN Kool-aid quite heavily. I'm now wondering if that Saturday session is going to prove detrimental to the program and I've dug myself into a hole 
I'm getting back in the lab for a blood lactate threshold test next week to find out what the hell is going on. Could it be cumulative fatigue over last couple months as I haven't been used to training at these intensities before and I still haven't adapted?
I've finally started to pull data into TP WKO+ so I'm hoping I can get an idea of what's happening via the performance management chart. Hoping the Saturday sessions aren't screwing me and doing more harm than good during the outseason!
comments?
Comments
being in week 10, you should have a good amount of fatigue in those legs. remember, there aren't any "rest" weeks in the EN OS. put those numbers in WKO+ and lets see what shows up for your NP instead of your ave. watts. if your doing this CT race as a roadie race vs. a steady effort the numbers are going to look very different.
Thanks Keith. The conversation in my head is pretty much exactly what you've alluded to - and I like the football analogy cuz I can actually relate to that coming from football background
So yah, during the Tues & Thur rides, I am completing the workouts and since I only had the Kurt Kinetic Watt Meter up until a few days ago, it "LOOKED" as though I was holding the watts steady - but of course it's kind of up and down during the intervals +/- 10-15 watts due to my square pedaling and the way the Kurt calculates the watts. I've just started using an iBike and have WKO+ so I'll be watching the numbers closely.
Definitely agree the CT race is going to show something drastically different than a sustained effort - but there have been 2 relatively flat "time trial" stages that I got my butt handed to me which was a real ego buster.
At any rate, I'm staying the course but am getting tested in the lab next week regardless to ensure my zones are in check. Getting ready to head home and hit tonights workout to see what happens.
Thanx for your input!
just a couple of things:
Ask yourself if your effort seems to be right. If it does, and the power numbers seem WAY out of whack (like you're describing), then there's probably something like the above going on. No way you're losing fitness at that rate, just no way.
BTW, blood lactate testing is interesting, but the results will have no impact on the zones you train in from an EN perspective. All the training methodologies here are based on actual, measured work (output) that you have demonstrated you can perform. Lactate testing and the like are physiologic responses to the work, but won't "confirm" your zones or anything of the sort.
Hope I don't come off the wrong way, I'd say there's a lot more to the story than meets the eye.
Mike
Thanks Mike, definitely agree on all points.
I have accounted for the "variability" between the different systems (Kurt, computrainer, iBike) so the numbers themselves may not be dead-on accurate which is fine. I guess my biggest concern, regardless of the actual number and what system I've been using, is the numbers have decreased over the last few 5 weeks - but I only during the Saturday race so I could be worrying about nothing.
I'm attributing it to the last couple months of way harder training than I've ever done during this time, so things must be catching up and I don't have the "oomph" on the Saturday mornings when I do the CT series.
Yes, calibration on the computrainers themselves could be a factor but I'm racing the same 50 or so guys and gals (it's across the country from different training facilities) and we are all subject to the same conditions, we don't use the same CT everytime but we all do 2 calibrations before the actual race heat starts (initial calibration after mounting the bike, 10-15 minute warmup, then final calibration before we say GO). Regardless, the point was these same people I'm racing are all improving whereas I seem to be declining but again, I'm attributing it to building lots of TSS over the last 8 to 10 weeks and no "recovery" in the sense of the traditional training model.
The series is held at the Peak Centre for Human Performance and they are a sports science lab (they train olympic athletes, professional athletes etc) and I've been tested probably 5 or 6 times over my tri career. The numbers that result from my test and the subsequent analysis give me some pretty solid numbers in relation to pace / power and heart rate zones so I believe it's very relevant to what we're doing or maybe I'm missing something (?). We are basing our workouts on the "EN FTP tests" and the data I get from the lab tests, although a result of "physiological markers", seem to be pretty relevant to establishing what zones I should be at in terms of power, heart rate, pace. They have my bike and run data over the past 3 years so bottom line is, if I'm seeing improvement in my bike power numbers (whether it's based on our EN FTP test, or based on the tests I do in the lab) - improvement is improvement. With the type of workouts we're doing in here, my lactate levels should be damn high and my zone 3,4,5 should be pretty damn good - however since we're not doing any Zone 1 "aerobic stuff", I obviously expect that my zone 1 results are going to be "crappy" since we aren't training that at all. One very interesting thing to note from my last 2 bike tests from last year (which were during my traditional base build training) was my maximal power output increased by 60 watts from my winter test to my spring test even though I was doing ZERO training at z4/z5 (ie, I was able to go 2 whole stages further in the test and ended at 60 watts above where I died the previous test) - my program at that time leading to the second test was majority zone 1 workouts throughout the week and Z3 intervals once a week. The Z1 sessions were no more than 1 hour during the weeknights, and 2 hours on the weekend. This improvement occured over 8 weeks.
This is why I'm a little bummed because I'm trying a whole new offseason philosophy this year heading into the 2010 season and now that I'm in 10 weeks, I haven't seen the HUGE gains I was hoping for... YET.
I know they are going to tell me to get back to Zone1 training now but I will stay the course and see what happens when I exit the outseason and head into the build phase. My head is telling me I'm training to kick azz at Ironman this August, not to do well in a "Winter Computrainer Race Series" - but it IS humbling to see some of my buddies outputting 280 to 300watts AVG (my best stage was in week 5 where I was at 234 and averaged 30km/h for a "rolling stage") for the race stages while I am near puking averaging between 215 to 230 over the series so far. Then again, we're all near puking at the end... but I digress....
Anyway, I just want to get some "sports physiologist" data as well to see what may be happening.
p.s. - just got off my bike after tonights ride - numbers are still solid and felt damn good so I'm gonna try to just accept possibly sucking this Saturday at the race
So, first, I hope I didn't come off as preachy re: the lactate testing. Not sayin' that it has no value, or anything of the sort. Just saying it doesn't confirm or deny the training zones we use here. If you have a long history of understanding your body's response to training, and how that interrelates to those tests, by all means draw your own conclusion. But there's no blood lactate test that's going to say "well, I thought my FTP was 235 from my 2 x 20' (2') test, but now that I've got blood lactate data, I know it's actually 220 (or 245)". Power at lactate threshold should be similar to FTP (at least that's the idea behind why 1 hour power is chosen as the FTP), but it's not going to give you the answer until you can also test at that number and hold it.
A couple of things stood out in your post:
BTW, just a thought, but when you do load everything up into WKO+, I'd be really curious about your TSB #'s. If you're doing all the plan work, and thrashing every weekend, I'd suspect you might be in a pretty big hole. Are you taking the Mondays and Fridays off per the plan?
Mike
I think that's what I've come to grips with - looking at the last 8 to 10 weeks, I've definitely done a lot more "WORK" then I've ever done - especially combined with the extra runs during the holiday run challenge.
In the past, I never did the actual series - just trained at the Peak facility and did all my running/riding there during the week. I typically had one Z3 steady state workout every Wednesday or it was a simulated hill climb (low cadence, high watts). There was also running in there and of the same flavour - more emphasis on Z1 with one night sprinkling in some Z3 intervals.
What is funny is, I was the poster child for their monthly training seminar because of how quick I was adapting to that type of training, big gains in run pace and ride power given the same heart rate and they would often refer to my data/graphs in their presentation slides.
Anyway, due to time and "life" and proximity to their facility since I've moved, I simply didn't have the time to train with them this year so this fits my current schedule way better.
I'm DEFINITELY taking the mondays and fridays off - literally in fetal position crying on the floor of the pain cave...
I've only begin to use the iBike and TP this week, so not enough power data to look at yet. However, looking at my polar data for the past few months, I've definitely got a lot of time in z3 / z4 for run/bike so it's diametrically opposite of what I had in previous years (way more Z1, very little Z3+)
Like you said, I'm just going to discount the saturday CT series and use it as a hard-ass workout and not worry too much about my performance in this particular series. If my weekly ride workouts start to suffer and my TSB is on a steady slope down the toilet, then I know I'm pooching myself on the weekend. That's probably a better benchmark is how well I can continue hitting all the workout goals during the week while still having an "ok" performance on the Saturday ride.
The real test will be how I do at the Oliver Half Iron in June as a confirmation all this current suffering and ego busting will pay off come Ironman in August
Thanks again Mike and Keith - invaluable insight!
As someone following this thread but no "skin in the game", I'm gonna hold you to that promise. I am betting you are going to kick some serious arse out on that IM course!
"Eye on the Prize"!
Tavis - Just keep doing the work, and getting the rest. Look at the CT TTs as a fun diversion, nothing else. After 17 IM training cycles, I've found that what I was producing in workouts 7 months out had NO bearing on the ONLY numbers that really matter, the combined bike + run time in Penticton come August. Stay consistent, and don't dig a hole.
That's the key - I hope I'm not digging (too deep) a hole now. Coincidentally, the series ends right around the same time as my outseason ends so I'm looking at another 12 weeks of the "suffer fest" on Saturday. My pride and ego is doesn't want to let me fall too far behind in the GC standings
thanks for the note!
T.
p.s. - I was down in Gig Harbour last October, beautiful area!
Oliver Half Iron-----Tour of Switzerland/Tour of California
Ironman Canada-----Tour de France
CT series can be a motivator, but which one would you rather win???
Funny enough, I won my heat yesterday at the race lol. Was grouped with some of the slower riders of the series but I'll take it. Wattage was exactly the same as last week but the course was 3km longer so no complaints!
Keep the drive alive!
BTW, your Sat races add up to a lot more than the amount of work in the normal schedule. Extra rest should most likely be worked in too, No?
Keep up the good work..kick butt!
Thanks Mike!
Absolutely - I can almost guarantee that if I were to take a "recovery" week, I am very confident that I'd crush it huge on the Saturday race - but I'm of course going to stay the course and like everyone is saying - I'm not training to do well on these "fun" saturday rides but they are definitely building some TSS and mental toughness points!
Actually, since I'm heading into a test week, I may take an extra day off next Thursday after the run test wednesday night and see what happens next Saturday - we have a 30km time trial stage so it will be interesting to see what happens with that extra day of recovery before the end of the week.
Definitely paying attention to TSS and the TSB values that are accumulating in WKO+. I'll definitely work in an extra day off here and there when/if I see my weeknight targets slipping.
giddy up!