vDOT Thoughts & Updates: Pacing, Goal Race Times and more....
Folks, please add/edit your comments below so I can put this to the wiki at some point, thanks!!
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The vDOT Conundrum: The Faster You Get the Closer Your Paces Get
This happens when folks get north of about a 54 on the vDOT scale -- your MP and HMP get close together. It's simply a function of math, and a bit of physiology. Once you start to approach that upper end of your potential, your "slower" paces can improve but your peak one simply can't continue on the same linear trend line.
So if you are at a vDOT of say 56, you'll notice that your z3/HMP is about 6:20, and your z2/MP is about 6:36. In other words, that hard tempo pace is, on paper, mere seconds away from a sustained long run pace. This is simply the cost of being fast.
With great speed comes great responsibility (and greater need for accuracy)! While bouncing around +/- 10 seconds at any given time within a set interval doesn't seem that bad, it can really undermine the desired training impact if you continually push too hard for too long. It's your job to dial that pace in to the best of your ability within each session -- cheek your GPS, know your route, dial in the feel of your pace…but don't overachieve when it's unnecessary!
But let's be clear that z2/MP isn't our desired long run pace. In other training paradigms a "Zone 2" pace is a run all day type effort. Inside EN, that pace really doesn't exist -- we have the z1/LRP that is most likely 20-30 seconds slower per mile than any other similar training program…and that's our default get out there and run long pace BECAUSE we want you to be able to crush it when we turn the speed up in your other sets.
Understanding the vDOT Pace Generation Process (Plus Half/Marathon Timing Insight)
We look at it like this...we train to the faster paces but we race to the right ones. So the vDOT is showing you your marathon POTENTIAL. I usually deduct 2.5 vDOT points off that 5k time to factor in the gap between a 5k and an open marathon.
So if your vDOT is a recently tested 48, that puts your Marathon Pace at 7:32 which is exactly where we want you to train. This vDOT also yields a projected marathon finish time of approximately 3:17:19 -- but this number is not relevant to you!
If you are looking to calculate what that recent 48 test will yield on Marathon Race Day (no IM!), then you should remove 2.5 vDOT points. Your vDOT drops from 48 to 45.5, which is a projected marathon finish time of 3:26:21.
Determining Your Goal HIM & IM Run Times & Pacing Using vDOT
To get your IM pace, we use your z1/LRP, which off your 56 vDOT is a 7:47 mile, or 3:24 marathon. That's not to say you won't beat that time, but that's about your ballpark.
If your goal is to be ready to run a 3:15 ON PAPER, your vDOT needs to be about a 59. That's not to say you can't beat the 3:24 number...you might really pace the bike well / steadily and have a cool day / favorable conditions....but that's what history has shown the majority of our folks do.
FWIW, I ran a 3:22 last year on a 57.5, and that was "on the rivet" as Phil Ligget would say, and with few minutes of blow up time and walking…my vDOT should have given me a 3:19:45, but I pushed the bike a bit too hard and my early run a bit too much as well.
For Half Iron athletes, we use z2/MP as your goal target race day effort. In the case of a 56 vDOT, this would mean a 1:26:30 best possible race time. Again there are plenty of factors that go into earning and/or beating that time, but it's your default starting point for framing your personal race pacing strategy session.
Comments
Good Post Patrick...up pushing on that cusp and its good to go through the thinking behind the paces...because I don't believe they match up with Daniels specifically (who also doesn't have a HMP pace
Rich see Coaches Conundrum quote:
"But let's be clear that z2/MP isn't our desired long run pace. In other training paradigms a "Zone 2" pace is a run all day type effort. Inside EN, that pace really doesn't exist -- we have the z1/LRP that is most likely 20-30 seconds slower per mile than any other similar training program…and that's our default get out there and run long pace BECAUSE we want you to be able to crush it when we turn the speed up in your other sets."
I think this addresses what your are experiencing.
An alternative that has worked for me (it may vary by individual) is to race a half marathon within the 6-12 weeks prior to an IM. The VDOT I get from that is usually ~ 2 VDOT points lower than my 5K VDOT, and is the one I use for racing, while continuing to use the higher one for training. I have no broad-based data on this, but I suspect that an HM derived VDOT like this is a very good marker for IM race-day pacing. Some people will be relatively better at endurance vs speed (26.2 vs 3.1 miles) running, this will be reflected in the HM VDOT, and thus should also play out appropriately on IM race day.
A 2.5 drop is the biggest one should see using this method, I'd guess, unless one is not well enough trained to be racing in the first place. If 2.5 seems like too much of a drop, do an HM, and see if you can get a higher VDOT; then race off of it.
Thanks Joseph, I must have glossed over that part...Now that makes sense...
I like to use the McMillan Running Calculator to adjust my running zones by plugging in a recent race result. For the same input McMillan suggests tempo intervals be in the 6:02-6:15 range which agrees with my EN TP of 6:04. But my McMillan tempo range is 6:07-6:23 and my EN HMP is 6:08. Is it realistic to run 1:20 at the fast end of my McMillan tempo pace? Maybe under the best of circumstances - tapered, rested, A-race. So for me the EN Z3/HMP is really a very solid tempo workout. In fact, I've been doing a weekly tempo run of 5 miles at 6:10-6:15 and it's challenging but not brutal. I could probably continue another 2-3 miles if I HAD to.
I'd suggest a bit of pace zone hack for those of us in the ~54+ vDOT range similar to what I've been doing.
Thank God!....I thought I was the only mere mortal around the Haus. (newly minted 53 vdot)
Thx coach. If you could touch on what folks are asking. From 54 last year to 56 now. i too will do the z4 and then end up closer to Z2 for the fill in. Is that reasonable? Or should we be able to tolerate Z3 fill in?
Thx for the topic.
+1 on this strategy, which I've been following without meaning to (it's just what I was able to muster) for the EN long runs the last couple of years.
I have some random thoughts on my own experience to share, but no real conclusions yet:
Threshold pace is typicality thought of as about the pace you can hold for an hour (yes I know we can get into lactate threshold and other discussions)... so of course the closer your half marathon gets to 1:00 the close the paces are.
Therefore half marathon and threshold become redundant at some vdot in my mind. At that point you are really just doing different types of tempo runs... i.e. tempo intervals such as 800s, cruise intervals, steady state efforts (i.e. 1 x 20'). It's not really a different zone anymore, just a different type of workout in the same zone.
FWIW, Jack Daniels doesn't have a Z3 Half Marathon Pace and I assume it is for this reason as well as what others have mentioned in this thread. Instead he has different flavors of threshold and tempo work that can be similar to EN's HMP for folks with high vdots... but he has those as separate workouts not added time at the end after a long or hard effort.
Other random sorta related notes:
In my experience there is a HUGE difference between adding time at 85% on the bike and adding TIME at HMP on the run. Adding MILES is a little better as the faster you are the less time you will be running at HMP.
At the end of the day, the faster I get the less "margin of error" there is in the paces and the more specific my training needs to be to continue to improve. This means more accurate testing is needed and more attention to detail and discipline when running to stay at the target pace.
Not to sound like a broken record but just because someone "earns" a vdot at one race distance on one day does not mean they all of a sudden can and should be trying to hold that pace across all training zones and distance. I now use multiple distance tests to better understand my pace curve and what I paces I should be at in each of the zones. Like AL, my 5k to half marathon vdot delta as typically been about 2 points (but the other direction from AL). At my vdot two points is HUGE which is why I know use multiple date points to define zones.
BTW, I haven't been around or hard time to post much, but I'm thrilled to report that I just earned a 61.8 vdot for a 20' run test 2 weeks ago. That's huge for me as I have never earned over 60.5ish in anything that short even in peak form and this was just part OS training.
* What would half marathon open adjustment be?
* Example of 30" slower per mile for long / race sim runs
* Bridging vDOT gap = use a half marathon for time (some folks do better!)
* Over vDOT of 54, extended long run time in z2 or lower. no zone 3.
* Good points on z3 for bike vs z3 for the run. I can edit to make sure the additional time at end of long runs is z2 not z3…how does that sound?
ps congrats Matt...I think I need to drop from 180 to 175 to be competitive with those numbers...what are you weighing these days?
I'm averaging 141 which is about 7 lbs over my race weight and about about 4-5 pounds heavier than usual for this time of year. However, my guess is a fair bit of that is muscle thanks to 5 months of swimming 15k per week (almost all hard) and 5 months of strength training (which I haven't done since high school). I'm feel and look leaner than usual for this time of year.
*So for me anyway I think no adjustment needed for half marathon times.
* I have been using a pace about halfway between EP and MP for my long runs around MP+35ish or EP -35ish
*no problem testing vdot via half marathon for comparing or using closer to IM
*no opinion on vdot over 54 still a long ways off but noticed the paces getting close even for a vdot of 50
*+++ on the z2 for additional time on the run that is what I do anyway and appears alot of others do as well... bike is fine at z3 I think
I think this is another point that shows that the data and strict math that we use work well within certain limits, but then start to fail when you get too fast or too slow. There's no law of physics that says the approximations we make to come up with these really useful guidelines are going to work for everyone. The other obvious instance of this is the long-slow bike ride, where lowering intensity further and further is not a good idea.
Cheers,
William
ps. Matt, congrats on an insanely high VDOT!!!
Since the zones are just that, zones, I will try to run in the bottom (faster side) of the zone...but, it is still just z2. I only have 4-5 seconds between my z3 and z4.
where do I get one of these VDots? Is this a tattoo?
You get your vDot from the data tool under Training or vDot calculator under Resources.
I'm with you and Joel. I rarely tack on Z3 work to a Z4 session. It feels like I'm playing with fire when I do. I might go Z2 for 5-6 mins the rest of the way home but that's about it.