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NORM POWER

jettshawnjettshawn
in General Training Discussions

OK, I SCREWED UP A WORK OUT AND MESSED THE LAP THING UP,, SO PLEASE HELP ME FIGURE OUT NORMALIZED POWER FOR MY BIKE TEST.. I TRIED DOING THE MATH AND BARLEY GOT THROUGH HIGH SCHOOL.

20 MINUTES 280 WATTS

2 MINUTES 230 WATTS

20 MINUTES 275 WATTS

NORMALIZED POWER =

Comments

  • Scott AlexanderScott Alexander
    Do you have WKO+, or any of the other software?
  • jettshawnjettshawn

    YES, I  USE WKO, BUT WHEN YOU DONT LAP THE TWO 20 MINUTE SESSIONS THEN IT JUST GIVES YOU NORMALIZED POWER AS THE SAME AS AVG POWER. IN REALITY I WENT HIGHER ON THE FIRST 20 MINUTES WHICH IF I UNDERSTAND NORMALIZED POWER IT SHOULD GIVE ME A HIGHER WATT FOR THAT SESSION. BUT I JUST KEPT THE GPS RUNNING AND DIDNT LAP THE FIRST 20 OR THE 2 MINUTE REST OR THE SECOND 20. THIS SCREWES THINGS UP IN WKO AND JUST GIVES ME A AVG WATT THE SAME AS NORMALIZED POWER WHICH IS 277. IF I WOULD HAVE LAPPED AND WKO KNOWS THAT MY FIRST 20 MINUTES WAS 281 THEN I BELIEVE IT WILL GIVE ME A HIGHER NORMALIZED POWER FOR THE WORK OUT INSTEAD OF 277 AVG. PLEASE HELP

  • tuckermtuckerm
    You cannot just highlight the 42' section of the test? Regardless your FTP is most likely 275-277. Call it 275 to keep it a round number. And why do you think you will get a higher NP? Did you have a steady ride? Did you stop pedaling at times?
  • jettshawnjettshawn

    IN WKO IT ALWAYS GIVES YOU A HIGHER NP VS AVG POWER AS LONG AS YOU DIDNT HOLD A STEADY WATT FOR THE ENTIRE WORKOUT. THIS WORKOUT FOR EXAMPLE INCLUDING MY WARM UP SHOWS AN AVG POWER FOR THE ENTIRE WORK OUT OF 248 WATTS AND A NORMALIZED POWER OF 265 WATTS. AGAIN THIS IS THE ENTIRE WORK OUT, BUT THE SAME THEORY SHOULD APPLY TO THE 42 MINUTE TEST. (I THINK).  IT SHOULD GIVE ME A HIGHE NP DUE TO THE FIRST 20 MINUTES BEING 281. ITS NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL, BUT I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO UNDERSTAND THIS AND MY OTHER 3 BIKE TEST THAT I DIDNT SCREW UP THE LAP ON THE GARMIN GAVE ME A HIGHER NP FOR THE 42 MINUTES VS WHAT THE AVG POWER SHOWED.

  • tuckermtuckerm
    Yes you will usually see a higher NP for your entire workout. This is due to surges and time spent coasting as the AP will include time coasting in its average. Ideally for your test you will be riding fairly steady and not coasting at all. Your VI should be pretty close to 1.0.
    But I'm not really following why you think your FTP should be above what you were able to average for 20' blocks. Where was this test done? I've always found that my AP is very close to my NP during tests and intervals, especially on the trainer, as the interval is a very steady effort.
    Also, did you just highlight the 42' section? You should be able to highlight it in WKO and it will give you the details of the highlighted section regardless of whether you hit lap or not.
    Oh, and the CAPS, please stop.
  • jettshawnjettshawn
    The test was done on a trainer, never coasted or stopped pedaling so i see your point. It was a pretty steady effort other then the first 20 minutes was alittle higher then the last 20 minutes. I just thought after my other tests that i would get alittle diffrent or higher np for the 42 minutes. I went out on satarday and did a 22 minute time trial on a 5 mile 5 percent climb non stop pedaling and it showed avg power of 309 and a normalized power of 322. Again this was non stop pedaling but there was surges in the climb that didnt allow it to be a constant steady power readining, it varied alot. But i did get alot higher np reading then avg power and this is why im thinking that i should have a higher np, usually i get a higher np reading at the end of a hard workout, is this only on the workouts that have surges and not a constant power? Sorry about the caps
  • tuckermtuckerm
    On your tt you probably had lots of time above 322 and lots below 300. The formula gives more wait to higher efforts ence the higher NP. And NP is a construct created to give the physiological/metabolic costs of your efforts. Think about this. If I told u to do a 25mi flat TT, say an hour effort, your AP is your true FTP. Sure your NP might be higher, but your AP is what you really can do for that hour. So like I said, if your AP for 20' is 280, no way is your FTP higher than that.
    Maybe do a search of the wiki for NP, IF, TSS or search training peaks website. Lots of good info. Also maybe buy Training and racing with a power meter. Good book.
  • jettshawnjettshawn

    I hope you dont think im crazy, you have helped me out alot. The only reason i am having this question is because in en on our bike test it says to do the 2x20 minute test and then take you normalized power and use this number as your ftp. This is why iam having the question, not sure why the coaches just dont have us use our avg power vs np, if on my test my avg power is the same as my np. But to there credit most of the time my np is higher then avg power. This time it wasnt so i thought i screwed something up, but according to you i must have just had a real consistent avg power during the test and this is why they are the same.. But the main reason im searching for the np is becasue the en test says to use that number.. I really appreciate your help..

  • tuckermtuckerm
    No worries. NP is correct for the 2x20'. The 2' is there to lower the overall number to estimate your one ur FTP. During your tests I think the ap of each interval should be fairly close to the np. They shouldn't differ that much. Think of this.
    You ride for an hour at 300w. I ride for 20 @ 200w, 20' at 300w and 20' @ 400w. Both our our averages are 300w. But my np will be much higher than yours because my 400w costs makes my body do more work than your average of 300w. Sorry I don't have the time to do the true np of this example. But this is an extreme example. Our tests should not be this extreme. Your differences should be not as large as what the difference would be here.
    But you are doing things right. It's a learning process. Keep asking.
  • gopetegogopetego
    Shawn - here is my latest FTP Test (trainer) result that coincides with what Tucker is telling you.

    1st 20: 270w
    2 Min off: 156
    2nd 20: 268w
    NP = 265

    The NP is lower than the AP for both segments, in part, because it also takes into account the 2 minutes off. Otherwise it would probably be around 268/269. I'm pretty sure the NP for each 20 minute segment is equal to or very near AP, especially on the trainer where there are no hills, stops, bursts to deal with (low variability = steady state = NP & AP closer together). Outdoors usually means higher variability thus greater difference betw AP & NP.
  • John WithrowJohn Withrow

    To add to what Tucker and Pete said, your FTP WILL be the NP for the entire 42 minute test. It makes no difference if you hit your lap button or simply did it as one long set if you are moving your data file to WKO+ to analyze. It doesn't matter how steady you ride (even on a trainer) your NP will be higher than your AP for the whole 42 minute test. It is possible to have a VI of 1.0 for either 20 minute segment (I have actually seen that), and in this case, your AP and NP will be exactly the same for that 20 minutes. However, when you add in the 2 minute "rest interval" in the middle, it will now be impossible to have a VI of 1.0 for the whole 42 minute test. Because by the definition of NP, you will have a higer, then lower, then higher AP or NP for each of the 3 segments. I have seen as low a VI as 1.02 on a FTP test if you don't blow up the 2nd 20 mins. However, your AP will obviously be lower for the whole 42 mins than it will be on average for the "On" time (this is why we include the 2 min rest in the data set, to lower the number to approximate a 1 hour continuous test). And your NP will be higher for the whole 42 mins than the AP for the whole 42 mins. Whether or not your NP for the whole 42 mins is higher or lower than the AP for average of the two separate 20 minutes of "ON" time is simply a function of how steady you ride. If you ride super steady (low VI) then your NP for the 42 mins will be lower than the AP of your "On" time. If you were super sporatic, then your NP for the whole 42 mins might be higher than your AP of your "On" time. Their might be a random chance that has them equal, but this will merely be a function of what VI you happened to ride at. Hope this helps to clarify your question and not simply confuse it more...

  • Coach RichCoach Rich

    All good advice from everyone else. Notes:

    • Our test is 2 x 20' (2'), with the 2' rest there to bring your power for the 42' closer to what you'd do if this were a 60' test.
    • You are testing on a trainer so Pavg and Pnorm are likely very close, ie, a very low VI. However, depending on how you test outside, your venue, etc, your VI, and this difference between Pavg and Pnorm could be higher.
    • We use Pnorm vs Pavg because Pnorm accounts (as best it can) for the variability of your power application based on terrain, etc. To use an extreme example, if you were forced to use a TT course that had you coasting for a total of a minute or two, for whatever reason, your Pavg for the test wouldn't be an accurate reflection of the character of the ride. Pnorm is better in this situation.
  • jettshawnjettshawn
    This is all great info. Thanks to everyone for your time. I believe I have it figured out. My VI was just steady enough that the numbers where the same. I,look forward to meeting a lot of you soon in Texas. Thanks again
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