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Boston Mary Execution

Coach PnR and any others,

Feeling good as Boston mary date approaches.  I've pretty much nailed the workouts, including pacing in the Marathon hack.  Only difference is I've definitely been running the LRP portion of the long runs a tad faster - partially because it feels good and also because I'm running with some faster folks.  So... instead of a 10:00 LRP, I'm hitting more like 9:30s and sometimes even faster.  Good thing is those MP (especially), HMP, and TP paces are feeling easier than they used to!

So... I was thinking I'd go into Boston as kind of a fun (yeah, weird sense of fun I have!!) run, having already raced it once.  But... now I'm starting to think I'd like to see what I can do that day.  

Anyhow, the question is... what's a good way to pace this race?  I know it's tricky with the first 16 kinda downhill miles, so would appreciate any input!  FYI, BQ time was 3:43; first time racing/enjoying it (on pretty limited training due to injury) was ~ 4:00.

Thanks a ton! 

Julie

 

Comments

  • Coach P made recommendations on this race execution last year. Here is the link:

    http://www.marathonnation.us/race-execution/the-ultimate-boston-marathon-overview-part-3-a-racing-strategy/

    Good luck and hope to see you there.

  • I was starting to think about strategy too. Did I read somewhere that it's best to knock your current VDot down 2.5 points for a realistic approach on pacing, or did I dream that? Have most people ended up with avg pacing of their actual MP pace from last 5k test before race(s)? Also, I can't knock it down 2.5 notches on the calculator, so if knocking it down, better to go down 2 points or 3? Maybe best just to have the range in mind at miles splits. Ahhhh, it's time to think about strategy and execution again. Patience & discipline!!
  • @Dottie, yes to 2.5 and you can do it here: www.attackpoint.org/trainingpaces.jsp?eqdist=1500&vdot=31
  • So, is it unreasonable to shoot for the same pace as my BQ race last January, which is reflective of my current VDOT? Current VDOT is 41 -> MP=8:35; BQ race (Disney marathon) was 3:43:50 -> 8:33. Just trying to figure out what my mary pace should be for Boston...

    Thanks!
  • @Julie, did you read the link below from Rob about the 3 part strategy? That is what I am using b/c it is based on the Boston course, which will be different than Disney

  • For what it's worth, I've only run Boston once, and it was a success for me. (I'm quoted in that link.)

    In retrospect, the Newton Hills are nothing that would really bowl you over if they weren't in the back half of a marathon. The key is getting there in good shape. For me, that meant really focusing hard on running with good form for the first half of the race (and controlling pace) so that I hit them ready to go. LOTS of roadkill happens there. For me, the steep downhill section afterwards was tougher. That's something to keep in mind but know that "this too shall pass". :-)

    Good luck!
  •  Yep, Dottie... did read that link... very helpful!  I was just wondering if my 8:30ish pace from Disney should be my starting point from which to apply the suggestions in that link.  I'm thinking yes.  Looking forward to it, and meeting some ENrs!

     

  • I started with the MP of my last 5k test. If yours is 8:35, start with that? Or overshoot it a bit and go with 8:30? I'm not a wicked smaht membah thoughimage

  • I came to EN from marathon nation and had my Boston qualifer/PR last June using the MN strategy. I have to say that it takes a lot of focus to maintain the slower pace in the first 5 miles and ignore the crowd passing you, but well worth it. I actually passed a training partner who is so much faster than me, broken down and walking about mile 22. Without reading any of the references above, I had already decided to go with my lower Vdot MP (which is at least 2.5 lower) as i can't believe I can really go 26.2 at the new one. I'm figuring if I feel good at mile 18 or 20, I will kick up the pace then. Looking forward to meeting all in Boston!
  •  Boston is a much easier course than many expect/understand...I believe that the key to a postive experience at Boston is the first 6-7 miles...it is net downhill and people get carried away with the field, the emotion, the ease of the downhill...the hills in Newton are not outrageous and if you have heldback smartly in the first half you'll crest them and be flying for home....(that sounds easy doesn't...LOL...certainly easy to write about it) Anyway...negative splitting is always a good strategy but it is even more crucial at Boston...because of where the hills are..(oh and don't stop to kiss too many folks in Wellsely)....

    IMO you should go with your Disney pace if that wht your training has keyed you on..and you feel good.

    Just my opinion only.

  • I second what Joseph says. I took two runs @ Boston., The first time, I did what he describes as the wrong approach. I'm a good downhill runner, so I tried to take advantage of that at the start. The second time (the first year they had to large waves, with the corral within the waves), I was in the next to last corral of the first wave. So I decided to drop back to the last corral, and stood at the back of that, and waited 3-4 minutes AFTER they started (there was a 30 minute lull between waves), so I could run downhill @ my own pace without much of anyone around me. Then, I went stupid slow for the first 10-12 miles, and was able to fly up the hills, and zoom past 100s of people/mile the last 10 K. It felt great, and was pretty much an even split. Oh, and I still took advantage of the DOWNhills in Newton.

  • I ran Boston last year for the first time, and I think that your advice above is spot on Al. I wish I had that advice last year. I was one of the people walking after 25km. The downhills killed me, just trashed my legs. It was the most painful marathon I have ever done. I was 20 minutes slower than what I qualified at. I would of been okay with the time if I had managed my race well, but I did not and I have continued to be disappointed in myself ever since. Not sure I will ever go back.
  • Als advice and marathon nations advice is spot on in a perfect world. Easy to say and hard to do!

    I ran Boston last year (first time) and going back this year. I read all the go slow first half advice last year. Reality took over and I too ran too fast the first half. Its easy, its downhill, adrenalin, everyone around you is going that fast, your HR is hardly above resting, so it happens it will happen. You try to reel yourself in but you cant. About 3 miles in you think this probably wont end well, about 7 miles in your thinking uh oh this is gonna hurt, the half marathon mark you know without a doubt how ugly its gonna get. I absolutely welcomed the uphills for a change of pace literally. The last 6 miles just get harder and harder it just turns into a wimpering suffer fest for the last 3 miles. In the end I postive split pace but negative split RPE and set a new PR but I credit EN training and just perseverance and willingness to suffer. I looked up alot of Boston results last year and dont think I saw any negative splits and that included EN members. Its just that hard to execute.

    I will try to apply Al's advice the best I can but knowing what I know its going to be more like just trying to control the inevitable a little bit more!

    Good Skill all Boston peeps Tim,









  • Posted By tim cronk on 01 Apr 2012 03:29 PM

    Its easy, its downhill, adrenalin, everyone around you is going that fast, your HR is hardly above resting, so it happens it will happen. You try to reel yourself in but you cant. 

    I looked up alot of Boston results last year and dont think I saw any negative splits and that included EN members. Its just that hard to execute.



    I will try to apply Al's advice the best I can but knowing what I know its going to be more like just trying to control the inevitable a little bit more!



    Good Skill all Boston peeps Tim,



    Tim, while I admire your toughness and ability to push yourself, I'd encourage you to re-read the above statement.  It's exactly this thought process that leads to hundreds and hundreds of fit athletes walking the last 6 miles of an Ironman ("I knew I was biking too hard, but hey, that's just how it goes"). 

    You've got a recipe, it's proven to work.  Follow it.  Period.  It's supposed to be hard.  If it was easy, everyone would do it.  Read Betsy's testimonial, and ask yourself whether you'd rather feel like that.  It's a cop out to say "well, I know what I should be doing, but that's too hard, so I'm just going to do it another way."

    To your point about looking for negative splits among EN'ers, you know as well as we all do that you're unlikely to see them for anybody at Boston.  Doesn't mean it's not a good goal.  Negative split the RPE, sure.  But if you hold back those first 6 miles, that negative split RPE will lead to much faster running in the last 6-8 miles. 

  • This got me to thinking I should re-read my race report for Boston 2006. I'll include a couple of sections here: my plan for the race, and my resulting race splits, to demonstrate what is possible. I'll also include snippets of the race itself. The entire report is impossibly long. I hadn't read it for years. It's a good story, and I think I will add it to my blog (in segments) this week in honor of the upcoming race.

    My plan: "I've got a plan, and if there's anything I've learned from 9 Ironman races and 4 marathons in the past five years, it's that plans only work if you follow them. My plan goes something like this: since there are two waves, and I'm near the end of the first one. I will start at the VERY end of the first wave. I'll let a lot of space develop between me and the pack. I'm a super good downhill runner, compared to most folks my speed, and the first several miles of Boston are downhill, with the steepest sections at the very beginning. I'll need some running room, or I'll burn up a lot of mental energy trying to either go slow, or weave around people. Then, the first 8 miles I will run at a laughingly slow pace. It should feel just below (slower than) the minimum speed needed to tire me out. I'll kick it up a notch from 8-9 miles through 14. Then the hills start. Here, I'll let my heart rate get into zone 3 - for me, between 143 and 149. I'll do my best to maintain effort up and down the hills, and not let myself get mentally psyched out by the uphill effort. Finally, when the hills are done - about mile 21 - I'll finish with whatever I have left. And especially in this last part of the race, I'll admire the crowds, the masses lining the streets leading into downtown Boston.

    I'll let myself walk a bit in each aid station, just long enough to drink a cup of Gatorade. Whatever the weather is, warm or cold, windy or still, sunny or cloudy, I will ignore it. I will not let myself be pushed by the clock - I will run by feel, not pace, and I will NOT let myself burn out before the end. And I will let myself learn whatever the day is going to teach me." I wrote this before the race.

    It's a long way to the start mat - no sense in hurrying before the race actually begins: "...Finally, we start walking. I insist on walking the whole way to the start line. This takes nearly 8 minutes. The temptation to break into a run is almost overpowering, as the way is lined with thousands of spectators, all urging me to "Go, go, go!!!" The energy here, at the start, is humbling and overwhelming. At the very top of the hill, the start line, and pads for our chips to start our own personal clock. Finally, I can start to unwind my top. But slowly, gently...."

    Here's a good summary opf how the race FELT to me: "...If the first eight miles had felt like a long run training pace, and miles 8-14 had felt like a marathon pace, and the hills had felt like work and fun (the downhills at least), now I felt like I was moving into a new, unknown pace. It felt about as hard as a half-marathon, but my legs were so much deader than in that shorter race. There were thousands of people surrounding us now, as we moved by Cleveland Circle and Boston College. The BC kids were way more numerous and much much louder the the Wellesley girls. I don't know why they don't get the same publicity - maybe because some of them can be too rowdy. Anyway, it was almost deafening. But I was moving; working hard, but moving at a good pace. And passing hundreds of people each mile, so many I had  to weave around among them.

    I was also starting to get the message from somewhere - my legs? - that I was working too hard, and that it would be really nice to slow down and rest. My head felt clear, though, well hydrated and still cooking, still insisting that I could indeed maintain this manic yet debilitating pace through town. At this point I was not using any particular motivation. No landmarks, no interaction with crowd, no racing with those around me. I was just on some catabolic autopilot, eating myself up as I plowed on to the finish..."

    5K splits, with average heart rate during that time (my maximum HR is about 170)

    5K    25:58    134

    10K   26:35   136

    15K   26:40   136

    20K   27:11   136  half way: 1:52.07

    25K   26:16   139

    30K   26:51   140

    35K   26:49   145

    40K   25:47   148

    42.2K 11:55   152 total time 3:45.04, for a second half of 1:52.57

    Here's a link to the first segment of the race story - I'll upload a new one every day until it's complete (actually, I'll upload them all now, but set them to go live a day at a time.) For those who insist on the whole thing at once (it may be a 20 minute read), it's in my pre-blog blog.

     

  •  This was my Boston Experience. 3:32...not my fastest but I just ran for the experience (my first Boston) I wanted to run smart and enjoy the experience. Key was sticking to my plan of holding back early on...got a little carried away in Wellsley...but generally a smooth ride...the last mile 8:16 is 1.2. 

     

  • Great stuff Al. Thx for sharing. Lots of knowledge here.

  • Folks, will be doing a webinar on this for Marathon Nation on Tuesday Night, 8pm EST. You can register here: https://www1.gotomeeting.com/register/132594424

    Marathon Race Execution Webinar with Patrick McCrann: Boston Marathon Edition
    Join us for a Webinar on April 10

    Space is limited.
    Reserve your Webinar seat now at:
    https://www1.gotomeeting.com/register/132594424
    Join Coach Patrick from Marathon Nation for this race preparation webinar. Patrick is a three-time Boston finisher (3:01 best), who has coached hundreds of runners to the Boston finish line. Patrick will review his marathon pacing guidance and give specific tips for the Boston Marathon Course.
    Title: Marathon Race Execution Webinar with Patrick McCrann: Boston Marathon Edition
    Date: Tuesday, April 10, 2012
    Time: 8:00 PM - 8:45 PM EDT
    After registering you will receive a confirmation email containing information about joining the Webinar.
    System Requirements
    PC-based attendees
    Required: Windows® 7, Vista, XP or 2003 Server
    Macintosh®-based attendees
    Required: Mac OS® X 10.5 or newer
  • @Mike..... thanks for your comments and points well taken....I will try to execute via Al's and EN guidance but in the end it will be more of a compromise balance if you will.... Also I am a big believer in RPE over everything else , using pace, HR , and power to keep in check.... My recently raced 20 miler went very well with RPE/Pace.... first 2 miles fast 7min pace(also downhill), middle 16 reeled in settled in 7:20-7:25's , last 2 miles hard kick back to 7min pace.... But there in lies the probem and difficulty with Boston the RPE at the start is just so easy.... But hey being aware of it is half the battle!
  • Tons of great info...wish I had registered to run this year! Anyway, I have run it 2x with both being very fun and successful experiences. Both were done prior to EN, so I had no EN knowledge at the start...only the "advice" of the many who crashed and burned before me! ;( Go out easy and do not worry if it seems like everyone is passing you...they are...and you will pass them back! Easy first 1/2, then up and over the Newtons Hills. Like it has been stated before...not horrible hills by any means, it is just where they appear in the race. Focus on form and cresting each hill, relax on the downhill before you hit the next one. SMILE! Look around! Take it all in...it is AWESOME!! BEst advice was...after cresting the last hill about mile 21.5...WAIT until you get to the bottom, about mile 22 before you pick it up. Get over to the far left and drop the hammer on all the peeps who passed you in the beginning! I have used this plan twice and it has worked both times. When you are flying the last 4 miles, the feeling is magical! GO EN BOSTON PEEPS!!! Many of us will be cheering for you!! Go and enjoy the day! Toe the line and say..." I GET to do the Boston Marathon!!"
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