After reading the Bikefit book I was glad to read I am not crazy about feeling like I want to move forward. The bike shop says I look in great position but I don't feel like I am getting the power and I constantly want to move forward. My events are HIM and IM.
I'm the resident bike fit Nazi. So let us get that out of the way.
You stated the bike shop said you're in a great position. My first piece of advice would be to never, EVER go back to that bike shop again. Your fit is less than ideal. If I knew you better I'd tell you it was terrible. Excuse my bluntness but it is what it is.
1. Your seat is way too low. You want the knees to be kind of close to lockout but with a few degrees of bend to them. Your feet are real, real flat at the bottom of your pedal stroke. Seat = too low.
2. Your seat is way too far back. It needs to move forward... A LOT. And you need to move your ass forward.
3. You're way too stretched out on the bars. You're looking for a 90 degree elbow angle and you're not even close. You're probably 100-105 degrees.
4. I'd like to see pictures of your bike on an even level. The front wheel is raised much higher than the rear wheel in those pics. Set the riser to a more even level.
5. Your frame looks to be the right size. That's good. The fit just sucks.
6. You're too high (torso and back) but raising the seat will help flatten the back to some degree.
7. I'd rotate the aerobars down some.
8. Drop some of the spacers on the stem if you can. Did the bike come with multiple stems? If so, a shorter stem would be a better option.
Look at Matt Ancona's fit. That's about as close to ideal as you can get. Yes, many of us can't replicate Matt's position but it gives you a good idea of where you want to be. Compare your picture to his.
Robert - I just went through this and it was an iterative process. Bob also totally shredded my fit pics and he was totally right. My fit was bad, not aero and hurt after 5 minutes. My shop fit was basically them setting me up the same way they set up road bikes. Couple reasons for this. Few shops do any regular volume of TT fits. Also, TT fits are far more intimate, personal and have more things going on. As one fitter told me, road bikes are a game of inches, TT bikes are a game of millimeters where small changes count.
The process is an evolution as you get more flexible and comfortable getting really aero. Few people can hop into a Matt Ancona position out of the box. I bet Matt worked really hard to slowly keep dialing his fit into a more and more aggressive position. Two pretty famous fitters I have spoken to often recommended a program to increase flexibility with a goal toward removing stem spacers over a period of a few weeks.
Here are two links to my trials and tribulations. First link is after shop fit. Second link is after Todd Kenyon got a hold of me. I am still working on flexibility and will probably remove the last big spacer now that Wildflower is over and I have about 90 days to my next "A" race.
Look at my reach, where the seat is and how I sit. In aero you will find yourself out on the tip, not pushed back. As you come forward, you will want to come down. You need to get you elbows under you so the bones are doing the work, not you back muscles or shoulders.
thanks for the feedback. This is very interesting and yet frustrating. My bike post has two spots which changes the degree of my position. I am going to move it to the front position and may move my handle bars down one spacer. Do you think that's to much?
I apologize for the delay with my thank you. This is great information and raises more questions.
The orbea seat post has two spots you can connect your bike seat to. Last weekend I moved my seat the furthest position on the back spot. I still feel like I want to move forward so I am going to move it to the closer seat post position.
My stem is very high and I have several spacers to remove and lower it. The stem that is in there was put in there to raise the handle bar. I know when I take some spacers out it will actually move the handle bar further away. I could try putting the original stem which has no angle on there. But then I ask how many changes should I make at a time?
I do wonder about my knees not being over the pedal like on a road bike but does that not matter as much with a tt bike?
Any chance you will continue to work with me until I get this right?
Sooooooo looking forward to doing our schedule of regional skills clinics where PnI can get folks together and teach stuff like this. So much opportunity to be had, as a team, with teleporting the entire team up the all-things-bicycling learning curve. Anywhoo....
I could make some modifiers to Bob's critiques, namely: I don't think your saddle height is "that" low. I think you're in a range, evidenced by your knee bend, where it begins to be about personal preference. IOW, it doesn't scream WRONG as loudly as Dino's did when I first saw him ride. That shit was ugly! Upper-arm, torso angle: in my experience it should be ~90-110 degrees based on personal preference, how you like your cockpit distance, etc. So I think you're in the ballpark there but you probably don't know about enough the considerations for cockpit distance to have made a decision to be where you're at = an opportunity to experiment with what works for you.
Changes:
I believe nearly all of us should be riding very steep, with a steep seatube angle. Steep opens up the hips and allows us to get lower and more aero in the front. Watch TdF athletes timetrialing. UCI rules limit how steep the bike can be set up (not very). 99% of these guys ride on the nose of the saddle in an attempt to get steeper. In your case, you should absolutely move the saddle to the forward riding position. I ride a Cervelo P3C, with two seat post options also. I put mine in the forward one and slammed the seat as far forward as it would, then took a band saw to cut out the hole of the rearward position on the seatpost.
Stems: stems should be a cheap, consumable item. I suggest you buy 3-4 x 0 to minimum degree stems of varrying lengths, call it 90, 100, 110, 120. Swap them around to find the one that works best for you regarding cockpit distance (distance from the nose of your saddle to the rear edge of your elbow pad), then return the others or sell them on ebay.
Then, get your rise by moving spacers around. Yes, at some drop you may need to go to a longer stem, which is why you're using a $50-65 stem vs $$$ stem -- you won't think twice to swap it out. But I prefer to adjust drop via spacers vs stems because it's cheaper, I can do it on the side of the road with 2' and an allen wrench, and it's cheaper.
-Ok-I will make some adjustments and do some riding and picture taking.
-I am excited to hear I can move that seat forward. whoohoo! Not sure I will go to the extent you did but who knows.
-I have really had issues with seat rub/sores with this set up. Even lubing up like crazy and wearting tri shorts still gave me issues. I am hoping this set up will minimize those issues.
-I am not sure what 3-4 x0 to minimum means but I will learn and if I have qustions I will let you know.
-I am not sure what 3-4 x0 to minimum means but I will learn and if I have qustions I will let you know.
Thanks again,
Rob
Buy three to four cheap stems of varying lengths (90-120mm) with a zero to very small "rise." See how your stem angles sharply up? That's a Ludicrous Rise stem . You want one that is basically level to the ground or very slightly tilted up. You then adjust your drop (the difference between the height of your saddle and the height of your elbow pads by moving / removing $.50 spacers vs $$ stems.
Robert - I just went through this and it was an iterative process. Bob also totally shredded my fit pics and he was totally right. My fit was bad, not aero and hurt after 5 minutes. My shop fit was basically them setting me up the same way they set up road bikes. Couple reasons for this. Few shops do any regular volume of TT fits. Also, TT fits are far more intimate, personal and have more things going on. As one fitter told me, road bikes are a game of inches, TT bikes are a game of millimeters where small changes count.
My reach is way out and seat is all the way back. Plus I slide my ass all the back on it. Kills the hip angle and ruins your shoulders. I road bike fit 4 at Wildflower on Saturday with no fit issues at all, just my poor mechanical issues, but I am learning to be a "good wrench"....
First, get your seat height right. Looks like you're close, possibly a touch low, but not so much that I'd worry about it.
Draw a line from your hip bone through your shoulder and ear. Should be a straight line. If that line points close to horizontal, you're doing very well. If that line points up at 30 degrees, you might as well be riding a road bike. You're at that thirty degree angle. Mancona's position above is a great example of the horizontal line. To get to this position, you will probably need to slam the seat forward, especially on an Orbea which has a bit of a slack seat angle to begin with.
After you get your back flat (or close), then get some support up under your elbows, so that your weight is on your skeleton, not your muscles. This may require different angles /lengths of stems, and manipulating spacers.
This is the basic tri bike fitting process. I have to agree with Bob, the dudes in your LBS don't know a thing about fitting someone on a tri bike.
Comments
Robert,
I'm the resident bike fit Nazi. So let us get that out of the way.
You stated the bike shop said you're in a great position. My first piece of advice would be to never, EVER go back to that bike shop again. Your fit is less than ideal. If I knew you better I'd tell you it was terrible. Excuse my bluntness but it is what it is.
1. Your seat is way too low. You want the knees to be kind of close to lockout but with a few degrees of bend to them. Your feet are real, real flat at the bottom of your pedal stroke. Seat = too low.
2. Your seat is way too far back. It needs to move forward... A LOT. And you need to move your ass forward.
3. You're way too stretched out on the bars. You're looking for a 90 degree elbow angle and you're not even close. You're probably 100-105 degrees.
4. I'd like to see pictures of your bike on an even level. The front wheel is raised much higher than the rear wheel in those pics. Set the riser to a more even level.
5. Your frame looks to be the right size. That's good. The fit just sucks.
6. You're too high (torso and back) but raising the seat will help flatten the back to some degree.
7. I'd rotate the aerobars down some.
8. Drop some of the spacers on the stem if you can. Did the bike come with multiple stems? If so, a shorter stem would be a better option.
Look at Matt Ancona's fit. That's about as close to ideal as you can get. Yes, many of us can't replicate Matt's position but it gives you a good idea of where you want to be. Compare your picture to his.
The process is an evolution as you get more flexible and comfortable getting really aero. Few people can hop into a Matt Ancona position out of the box. I bet Matt worked really hard to slowly keep dialing his fit into a more and more aggressive position. Two pretty famous fitters I have spoken to often recommended a program to increase flexibility with a goal toward removing stem spacers over a period of a few weeks.
Here are two links to my trials and tribulations. First link is after shop fit. Second link is after Todd Kenyon got a hold of me. I am still working on flexibility and will probably remove the last big spacer now that Wildflower is over and I have about 90 days to my next "A" race.
Look at my reach, where the seat is and how I sit. In aero you will find yourself out on the tip, not pushed back. As you come forward, you will want to come down. You need to get you elbows under you so the bones are doing the work, not you back muscles or shoulders.
Fit 1
Fit 4
Just my advice. I am not an expert. Just a guy on a similar journey, but a little farther up the road...
Hi Dino,
thanks for the feedback. This is very interesting and yet frustrating. My bike post has two spots which changes the degree of my position. I am going to move it to the front position and may move my handle bars down one spacer. Do you think that's to much?
Hi Bob,
I apologize for the delay with my thank you. This is great information and raises more questions.
The orbea seat post has two spots you can connect your bike seat to. Last weekend I moved my seat the furthest position on the back spot. I still feel like I want to move forward so I am going to move it to the closer seat post position.
My stem is very high and I have several spacers to remove and lower it. The stem that is in there was put in there to raise the handle bar. I know when I take some spacers out it will actually move the handle bar further away. I could try putting the original stem which has no angle on there. But then I ask how many changes should I make at a time?
I do wonder about my knees not being over the pedal like on a road bike but does that not matter as much with a tt bike?
Any chance you will continue to work with me until I get this right?
Thanks again,
Rob
Notes:
Changes:
-I am excited to hear I can move that seat forward. whoohoo! Not sure I will go to the extent you did but who knows.
-I have really had issues with seat rub/sores with this set up. Even lubing up like crazy and wearting tri shorts still gave me issues. I am hoping this set up will minimize those issues.
-I am not sure what 3-4 x0 to minimum means but I will learn and if I have qustions I will let you know.
Thanks again,
Rob
Buy three to four cheap stems of varying lengths (90-120mm) with a zero to very small "rise." See how your stem angles sharply up? That's a Ludicrous Rise stem
@Dino - what is the link for Fit #1. I get the same video for both links.....
My reach is way out and seat is all the way back. Plus I slide my ass all the back on it. Kills the hip angle and ruins your shoulders. I road bike fit 4 at Wildflower on Saturday with no fit issues at all, just my poor mechanical issues, but I am learning to be a "good wrench"....
@Rich - hahahaha!
Today Dino fixed a new guy's flat (good) but laid his bike in the dirt (BAD!!) vs using his pedal as a kickstand on the curb
At least he laid it down drive side up or I would have had to suspend his posting privledges.
First, get your seat height right. Looks like you're close, possibly a touch low, but not so much that I'd worry about it.
Draw a line from your hip bone through your shoulder and ear. Should be a straight line. If that line points close to horizontal, you're doing very well. If that line points up at 30 degrees, you might as well be riding a road bike. You're at that thirty degree angle. Mancona's position above is a great example of the horizontal line. To get to this position, you will probably need to slam the seat forward, especially on an Orbea which has a bit of a slack seat angle to begin with.
After you get your back flat (or close), then get some support up under your elbows, so that your weight is on your skeleton, not your muscles. This may require different angles /lengths of stems, and manipulating spacers.
This is the basic tri bike fitting process. I have to agree with Bob, the dudes in your LBS don't know a thing about fitting someone on a tri bike.
Part of the process may involve flipping your current stem.