So I have to ask why...

GMAN 19030

do some of you sign up for really cold water Ironman races?  Year after year I read countless posts on here, ST, BT, etc. about the cold water ruining some people's races.  So why risk it?  "Most" will be fine but it almost seems a little foolhardy. What am I not understanding?

jimmy augustine

Funny you should write this. I am trying to settle on my first full. I keep coming up with reasons NOT to do each of them. Too hilly, too hot, water too cold, too much wind. No wetsuit.

foolio_mugoolio

Maybe it's the challenge??

Paul Hough

Bob ... I think "really" cold depends on the person. I know I'm fine down to 61 (2 IMs at that water temp), but I think I would suffer if it were in the 50s. What I look for now is how crowded the swim start is. So races with under 2000 starters, or which have an in water start get higher consideration. On the other side of the thermometer, some of those folks who like cold water can't stand warm temps. Muncie water is 81 this week...same as last years temp which some people said was bath water or made them want to vomit. I train outdoors year round in a pool targeted for 82 degrees. I prefer 83 and whine when it is 80 to 81. I've worn my shorty to the poolin the winter if a heater broke and the temp fell Tom 78.

selinah

Logistics may also play a part... I live in Calgary and have 3 small kids and limited childcare options (and budget!) so need to do the closest races possible... limits my IM's to IMC (which is OK temp wise) or CdA (which I have done 2011 and this past Sunday) - and yes its f@&^ing cold - but everyone is in the same boat (or IM washing machine!) so you just deal with it. I have to say though that I find that every time I get in cold water it gets better... being from the Great White North swimming in the cold is the only option and each time I get in a cold lake it seems just a little more manageable.... so double cap it is :-)

BeckyH

You do acclimatize- the more you do it, the more your body recognizes how to handle it. I did CdA 2 years ago (first IM) and was so worried about the cold water I was swimming in the lakes about 2 weeks after the ice came off. I wear a neoprene cap, sometimes use that muscle run stuff with capasican in it to give my skin the illusion it's warm, and suck up the lack of feeling in the hands and feet once you get onto the bike. I am in the same boat as Selina, being in Canada with a limited travel budget, CdA is close, and pretty managable from a life standpoint (no long sessions over the summer), and Canada. I dream of travelling to warmer races, maybe someday when I win the lottery :-)

Jump4Joy19

For me, I live in the Northwest and train in cold water continually. This year was colder and rainier than most, and so all of our lakes (including IMCdA) have that extra chill on them right now. Most years I think CdA is in the reasonable zone (which for me is 57+) but this year it was colder.

Other considerations play into as well - IMs I can drive to easily: Canada and CdA. I do worse running in heat than I do swimming in cold, which makes CdA a better choice for me. I am not sorry I picked CdA at ALL, even with the cold swim. It was an AWESOME race experience, and so much better than IMFL, although that typically has a beautiful swim.

Brenda Ross

I asked the same question last night and someone said the same thing as Enrique. My response was - isnt the race itself challenge enough?

Nate Parady

The idea of acclimatizing to the cold water is a little strange to me...I'm not saying I don't believe this but, how does being in cold water make your body's core temperature used to being cold??? or is this really just a function of, getting used to, "its going to be cold, its gonna suck, i'm ready for it to suck". Spent countless days and nights cold and wet in the army, beginning stages of hypothermia twice and I never felt I got used to it...being cold and wet just sucks...I know that with Frost bite certain ethnic backgrounds are more prone to getting this than others, a little different, but maybe still in the catagory of being able to handle cold.

@ Bob, It is certainly not a "plus" when it comes to me picking future races...kind of like signing up for a high altitude race, why risk it, oh wait, i signed up for IM Hoe...

robin sarner

 Some warm swims would be nice.   Have done cda.   St george.  Alcatraz.

 

I get cold easily on the bike.      Somehow have escaped it on the swim.      Being fastish and getting out of the water is what helps me i assume.    

 

Though has been a big issue for wife.   So warmer from now on probably.

Al Truscott

Maybe a naive hope that global warming is really happening?

Having done CDA 9 years in a row, my response: only one of those years did I have any trouble from the water temp, and that was last. (Didn't race it this year). So CDA until now did not really have a "too cold" rep like Boise or St George. And, like others here, it's my "local" race, so much easier to drive to an IM than fly, no time change issues, etc..

But I'm with Enrique these days. I'm looking for harder challenges, and I don't want to go longer - adventure races, ultra-running - so I have to seek out the tougher IMs. Tahoe (elevation, possible cold, choppy swim), Cozumel (heat, wind) and Lanzarote (heat, wind, climbs) are all on my radar screen for the next few years. And, I've totally bought into Rich's stated philosophy, that "harder" races favor smarter, better prepared athletes, which I aim to be. 

Dino Sarti

Next year I am doing CDA and Hoe. The choice for me was geography and the way the calendar fell. These races just seemed to work.



Another thought, being in sales, when I was younger I used to take some clients to "gentlemen's club's". I don't know, some guys like that sort of thing, I guess. When my wife would ask why I went, I would say, very tongue-in-cheek, "because that is where the meeting is". So why CDA and Tahoe? Because that's where the West Coast races are....

Swanie

When you consider that the swim (cold, normal, or warm) is only 10% of the race day, it doesn't really make sense to make race decisions based on water temp. CdA 2011 had a cold rough swim, but when it was done we were treated to a beautiful Norrthwest day to race in.

GMAN 19030

Posted By Steve Swanlund on 30 Jun 2012 06:47 AM

When you consider that the swim (cold, normal, or warm) is only 10% of the race day, it doesn't really make sense to make race decisions based on water temp. CdA 2011 had a cold rough swim, but when it was done we were treated to a beautiful Norrthwest day to race in.

Your argument works better to the contrary. Why would you risk the other 90% of the day because you spent the first 10% swimming in water that could make you hypothermic?  It's an unnecessary risk for many and something that more people should place a lot more importance on when making race decisions.  The countless race reports citing cold water issues as the main reason for either DNF'ing or having a subpar race tells me not enough people thought it through properly. 

It makes complete sense basing race decisions on water temp. It's the one and only reason I have not and will not sign up for IMCDA.

kjanracing

My take away from this is that I didn't have a problem swimming IMCDA at the temp the water was. It was after that I lost about thirty minutes getting warm enough to get on the bike. So, I need to learn to manage the temp. To allow my to get on the bike right after the swim. Maybe that will mean a cap and booties, or taking the couple moe minutes to change into dry clothes. We adapt to climbs, wind, ect. Need to figure out the water too.

GMAN 19030

Posted By Kurt Andersen on 30 Jun 2012 10:20 AM

My take away from this is that I didn't have a problem swimming IMCDA at the temp the water was. It was after that I lost about thirty minutes getting warm enough to get on the bike.

Your two sentences are contradictory. One caused the other, right?

kjanracing

 Not meant to be.  I could SWIM fine.  I need to learn to manage the cold temps.  Two different parts to me.

Paul Hough

At 61 degrees my feet will get a little numb but that's it. If you are having to warm up after the swim then it is too cold. There's no chance of adapting to colder temps here in Fl so I want to stay away from the races where the temps are likely to be in the 50s. I think 65 to 70 is probably ideal for an IM.

jhbinsc

 I think I merely made a poor wetsuit decision using a thinner BS helix instead of my thicker QR superfull. Also cloth forearm panels on helix not good! I've done CDA and AZ before in QR suit without issues but had a problem this year in Idaho. 

Would I go back? Sure. Would I wear a different suit? Definitely. QR was being repaired or I'd have packed it as a backup but really surprised at water conditions and I guess that's racing.

Trent Prough

I think Jeff said it well " That's Racing".
I go into every race prepared for anything, that's what the coaches tell us or preach to us right?
So Bob- I think if you are not prepared to go do a cold swim IM then don't go do one, but don't tell others NOT to go do a race just because your not prepared for it when they might be. I Go in ready for whatever, but sometimes I've won and sometimes I've lost the battle-- That's Racing. And that's the challenge.
So if your ready for it--DO IT!! If your not-- DON'T!!

GMAN 19030

Posted By Trent Prough on 30 Jun 2012 08:04 PM

I think Jeff said it well " That's Racing".

I go into every race prepared for anything, that's what the coaches tell us or preach to us right?

So Bob- I think if you are not prepared to go do a cold swim IM then don't go do one, but don't tell others NOT to go do a race just because your not prepared for it when they might be. I Go in ready for whatever, but sometimes I've won and sometimes I've lost the battle-- That's Racing. And that's the challenge.

So if your ready for it--DO IT!! If your not-- DON'T!!

You're kind of projecting a couple of things on to me and misinterpreting a thing or two here.  I'm not telling anyone to do anything except to think a little more about what they're signing up for.

• I already stated I would never do a real cold water race.  It has little to do with preparation and everything to do with risk mitigation.
• I get geographical logistics playing a role into reasons why people sign up for races like IMCDA.  I live in Houston and did IMTX last year.  I knew it was going to suck because of the heat but I did it anyway.  Guess what?  It sucked.  There's nothing remotely entertaining about running a marathon in 95 degree heat.  You'll notice I wasn't back this year.
• I get the people that are very experienced and very prepared for a chilly swim.  I even get the challenge aspect of it (as foolhardy as that might be).
• I honestly believe that not enough people thoroughly think through the issues in doing a cold water race.  There are countless race reports over the years backing that up.  Most of those folks were prepared (or at least thought they were) and most didn't think the cold water would adversely affect them... but it did.  I have a feeling it will be similar with IM Lake Tahoe and the altitude.  People got caught up in the moment and registered for a race in which they'll have difficulty training for and we'll see a shit ton of DNFs and fubar'd races.
• I'm certainly not picking on anyone in particular (especially EN folks) as I had planned on posing this question upon reading the many race reports on ST and BT.  I then saw similar stuff posted here at EN which only reinforced my inquiry.
• I disagree with your "that's just racing" mantra.  Race execution, the competition, the mental game, dealing with unforeseen challenges - that's racing.  Knowingly jumping into a 55 degree lake for a 2.4 mile swim is a gamble.  It's a big risk as calculated as it may be.  I feel not enough people are giving that risk its full and proper respect.  That's all I'm saying.  Most will be fine.  Many will not.  You'd be remiss in not thinking the cold water isn't a huge X Factor with a race like IMCDA.

Paul Hough

@ Bob ... I tend to agree with your points. I think the combo of cold water and altitude at Lake Tahoe is going to ruin a lot of races. They better have double the life guards there. But I've also raced Boise and IMCDA knowing that folks have had cold water issues at both, and proved to myself that I can handle the temps down to 60 no problem. But the crowded start at IMCDA produces a disproportionate number of panic attacks which are apparent every year in the EN race reports. That is the biggest X factor that I look for when I examine potential future races. I eliminated IM Switzerland off my to do list for that (and for high probability of rain and thunderstorms). I dropped IM New Zealand after this years one day delay then turning it into a 70.3 plus learning they had a similar weather fiasco a few years back. If you aren't geographically constrained then assessing the X factor of each course is just smart. But I must admit that there are many other factors as well. You mentioned you hate training through the summer...same here. There's a reason I've already done IMFL and IMAZ, and have IMCOZ up next. Unfortunately, summer raacing is a fact of life if I want to do travel other places. I suffered though last summer getting ready for Regensbug in August and will likely do the same to take on IM Sweden next year. Anyway...good thoughts. I always appreciate your perspective on the sport.

Nate Parady

Since cold water and lake Tahoe have come up, on the ironman websit it says

What is the expected water temperature on race day?
The water will be warm — typical water temp in September is between 65 and 70 degrees Fahrenheit.

I have also found other sites that say the water is very cold year round at the suffice...

I can't imagine that WTC would lie about the water temp (sarcasm), but it's pretty ballsy to say its gonna be "warm"...

My goals for lake Tahoe are to finish...I signed up for the chance of adventure and to tour wine country afterwards with my wife...my goals for the trip have little to do with swim time, bikes splits etc...however, I would like to finish even if I have to buy a new wet suite that's extra thick....

Swanie

I had hoped that registration for IM Tahoe would start until after July 22, that's when I am going to be down in Tahoe and plan to swim bike run on the course. I could then make an informed decision of my ability to perform in the "cold" water and thin air. But since they opened it early and I knew it would sell out, I took my shot and got in. Now when I go down to pre-ride, swim, run the course it will be a opportunity to decide on my race strategy. Will I go for PR, a good finish, or to simply survive.

Bottom-line, regarding Bobs topic, I do races in locations I want to do. There isn't a swim that is too cold or rough, a bike that is too hilly, or a run that too hot, cold, or windy that would turn me away. If 3000 other people can do it, then I can do it.

I just might hurt a little more!

GMAN 19030

@ Paul - I have completely resigned myself to the fact I will be doing either early season or late season Ironman races.  I'd love to do races like IMLP, IMMT, IMCan, IMWI but I know I'd be absolutely f***ing miserable training for them during the summer.  I'm not willing to put myself through that.  I'd also love to do one of the Australia races but the dates are no good since I'd want to bring the family and all the Down Under races are during school time.  This pretty much leaves me with IMTX, IMFL or IMAZ.  It is what it is.

 

@ Nate - Dan Empfield (Slowman, founder of ST) posted some insightful thoughts about the altitude issues at IMLT.  His thoughts were the swim was going to be where the altitude really affects people.

 

Slowman:

here's how it plays out. the swim is a bitch, because breathing is metered: so much work per given increment between breaths. altitude impacts swimming the most of triathlon's three activities. 

 

but, it's going to be a wetsuit swim, which is helpful. 

 

back to the swim in a moment. here's the flip side: it's easier to bike at altitude than it is to bike at sea level, because of the thinner air. it's not really hard to get enough oxygen during bike riding. that's not going to be a problem. 

 

it *would* be hard to run at altitude, if you'd entered, say, a 10k. but, by the time you get to the run, the altitude is not really going to be an issue. oxygen won't be the bottleneck. 

 

swimming: here's how to make it easier: 

 

1. get to the race 3 days early. do a swim every day before the race, to get used to it. 

2. make sure your wetsuit fits nicely. not restrictive. just, nicely. 

3. learn how to alternate breathe, as in, from time to time, as needed, from one side directly to the other, taking two consecutive breaths. we write about this a lot on the forum. 

4. start the swim on the outside, so you don't get run over. 

5. start the swim slooooooowwwwwwwly. 

 

if you're cognizant of the altitude and plan for it, you'll be fine. 

 

Dan Empfield 

aka Slowman

 

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=3995112 ;

Jump4Joy19

Bob, I have to say I agree with most of your points. I don't think people respect the shock to your system that cold water represents. Frankly, I was horrified that IMCdA did not allow for swimmers to have a warmup swim. I think that was at best negligent and at worst downright dangerous. I'm actually surprised that there weren't more heart attacks from 2500 people running into some very cold water and swimming hard from the get-go.

I also think that IMHoe will have probably the highest DNF rate on a consistent basis. Maybe not as high as this year's IMSG, but probably close. WTC calling that lake "Warm" is a joke if not an outright lie. I swam in it last September and it was very very cold. I'd say colder than IMCdA was last week. Moreover, the air temperature in the morning in September was in the high 30's or low 40's, not conducive to warming up on the bike. I agree with Slowman that breathing during the swim is very very difficult. If you add in the mosh pit of an IM swim start, I predict some very ugly results for some folks.

BTW, the WTC announcer at the IMCdA swim start said that the water was 62F, which was an outright lie. Maybe in a 2-inch deep shallow section that some triathlete just peed in!

All that being said, I respect cold water greatly, but I don't personally fear it. I do think that acclimation plays a huge part. I mean, people in Paris die in a heat wave of 95 F whereas Texans do not. The Arawak Indians that Columbus shipped over to Europe died of the cold in 50 F, a temperature at which Londoners move to short sleeves. What you're used to plays a HUGE part. Many of us in the Northwest are simply used to swimming in cold water. Most triathlons I do are in water 62 and below. However, I could not even finish an IM if it was 95 F on the run, I never train in that and know it would prove an insurmountable obstacle. So I do think geography matters when choosing your race.

Nate Parady

@bob, thanks for the info, I was already thinking along those lines and even more extreme practicing some sort of side stroke just to breathe and catch my breath if it's an issue during the...I like his last comment about if you plan for it you can deal with it...I would put hydration and sleep in the same category in terms of challenges at altitude. If nothing else we are planners.



@ robin, I agree, huge probability that it will be cold.

Paul Hough

At Robin ... Of course WTC lies though their teeth because they are a profit seeking company and don't want to scare away their customers. Read the RRs about the water temp the first year of St George. Most folks were reporting about 5 to 6 degrees than the "official" temperature.

Spokane_Al

I was glad to read Robin's comments concerning race morning temps. That would be my biggest concern in a September race.

For a couple of years we had a mid September Olympic race here in Spokane. The water was brutally cold, but during the first year's event the outside temps were very nice and warmed up into a hot day. However, the second day found us with mid 50s water temps and mid 40s air temps at race start time. I really suffered on the bike and swore that I would never do that again.

It just did not strike me as a pleasant way to enjoy a hobby.

Paul Hough

At Bob ... I think IM Los Cabos might be tailor made for us. It would require training through the winter, the water temp is likely to be upper 60s, the air will be dry, and it unlikely to be too hot or too cold. If I don't do well in the heat at IMCOZ, I may sign up immediately for Los Cabos. I sincerely doubt it will sell out.

Al Truscott

Posted By Paul Hough on 01 Jul 2012 06:29 PM

At Bob ... I think IM Los Cabos might be tailor made for us. It would require training through the winter, the water temp is likely to be upper 60s, the air will be dry, and it unlikely to be too hot or too cold. If I don't do well in the heat at IMCOZ, I may sign up immediately for Los Cabos. I sincerely doubt it will sell out.

Maybe becuase of this little news tidbit ...? Personally, I find decapitation a bit more worrisome than a cold wter swim.