TSS confusion Help needed

rpickard

So I am still trying to figure out this TSS thing.

I did a half ironman on June 10th and ended up with a TSS of 202 and a finish time of 2:53. I ended up with a NP 190 a IF .835 and my current FTP is 227

Based on my data this was suicide which it probably was along with the heat etc.

So how do I change this is the question?

If I would of done a IF of lets say 80% my finish time would of been longer which would of lowered my TSS

The Ironman and HI race execution charts says pick a projected finishing time which should be around the 2:53-2:55 mark for 56 mile bike. Based on my FTP this is suicide correct?

So based on what I see in these charts its saying that there was no way I could pull off a 2:53 bike split and have anything left to run on correct? And I also assume the only way I would be able to do a 2:53 Bike split and have anything left I would need to raise my FTP?

 

Any advise or assistance on this would be great.

 

Thanks

 

Peter Greagg

Randy — you are corrrect in that the HIM bike pacing chart shows an IF of around 0.8 for a bike split of about 2:55. And it is important to note that this is a suggestion for an "average" age grouper with good preparations.
Now there are some newer suggestions in the Wiki here http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/Wiki/tabid/108/Default.aspx?topic=Ammended+(Temporarily)+Racing+IM+and+HIM+with+Powe
What the Wiki is suggestiing is that if your bike split is 3 hours or more, you should stick to an IF of 0.78 - 0.79 — which is consistent with the 0.8 IF in your situation.
So to answer your question of how to improve your bike split, you need to push up your FTP, lower your weight if you can without losing power, get more aero (there is a ton of stuff in the wiki about the bike setup, including tyres and tubes) and a good bike fit, and finally, Nija-like execution.
The other factor is to get to know how well you can run off the bike — a really good runner with great run preparation can push a higher IF, all other things being equal, compared to a runner that isn't so strong — but practice is needed to work out that last bit.

Al Truscott

Randy - what was your run like in this race? That's another important data point to help analyze your bike data. Specifically, were you able to maintain a steady pace the whole way? Or did you slow down over the course of the 13.1 miles, or even walk  during the second half. Those recommended metrics for the bike are really all about setting up a successful run. 

rpickard

Al- My run for the first 3 miles was spot on. I could not maintain pace miles 4,5,6,7 then started walking and running the rest of the way.

The sad part is my legs and body felt good but I was overheating and trying to cool myself down with ice and ice water at every aid station but I would be good for a 1/2 mile and implode again.

I was not prepared nor did I take into account that the temps would be 91-92 degrees with humidity on the run at this time of day so I didnt think it would be an issue to concern myself with to a point of figuring in a run allowance for it.

So I can't pin point it if it was the heat/humidity or my bike that killed me.

I have a RR#1this weekend for another half coming in Aug which I know will be brutal hot and your running on black asphault so I am try get this figured out on how I want to test this.

Based on the TSS figures that is where I blew it but my legs felt good so any help or suggestions on my next RR to try would be appreciated.

Also the course I did Kansas is very hilly and I stuck to the hill plan to a T and did not spike my watts.

My goal NP was 190 and I nailed that and the hills were 210-220 on the larger hills since I was running out of gears for some of the larger hills.

Keith Wick

It seems to me that part of what you messed up was picking a projected finishing time under 3 hours. This is your "could" bike vs. your "should" bike. I would suggest that you ride at .78-.8 and see how long it takes you to bike 56 miles. It's possible that your TSS values will still be high, but you definitely paid for it by riding the ,835 The other thing is that when the heat gets going you also have to dial back your run paces (see the heat calculator for a general idea as I think it's only set up for IM, not HIM).
Raise the FTP is the only way to get to the time that you want. Also, understand that by chasing a time you are not considering a variety of factors that are going to influence it such as hills vs. flats, wind, temperature, etc. The whole point of the PM is to give you watts that you should ride at....period!!! Time will then be determined by how well you stick to that number...end of story. Remember that other people are chasing time and not paying attention to their effort or the conditions, which is why they implode. Work on execution which is to know your numbers and stay in your box by sticking to those numbers.
How did your race rehearsal for this event go?

rpickard

RR#1 went good but did not simulate a true Kansas hills test. Also had a good run. RR#2 was a more hillier ride equal order close to what Kansas was and blew the run being stupid so i kind of based my numbers from a combination of the two. I think for this next RR#1 i am going to do a flatter course multiple loops style with no major hills and see if i can get this dialed in. I was thinking of riding what you mentioned .80 and see what time i get and how the run goes.

mgraffeo

Randy, the true test is how you run. Some folks have a hard time truly pushing to their FTP in a test, which means they can get away with racing a little higher than the guidance (this is not recommended, but some can). I don't think that was the case here.

Bottom line, if you couldn't hold the pace at mile 4, you went too hard on the bike. Maybe on a cold day it wouldn't have caught up to you until mile 7 or 9, but it would have.

steveperx

The hardest thing about racing is being honest with yourself about how well you think you'll do prior to the race, and then being able to pull back from this goal if you're not feeling it during the race. We all have goals we WANT to hit. The key is being able to judge whether you think you SHOULD go that hard.

I raced Boulder 70.3 last year and planned on not doing the run. I figured I would go out and kill myself on the bike, since I knew I wasn't running. I still found that I didn't really feel comfortable at greater than about 84-85% FTP, because that's what I had trained for. On the plus side, I felt GREAT when I finished, and probably would have killed the run if I could have done it.

This year, I'm shooting for ~0.87 IF for goal watts on the bike, but I'll back off if I don't feel comfortable with it. I will look at RPE, HR and weather conditions to guide my governor.

Coach Rich

What Keith said. Also:

• You want to narrow down your FTP to a very accurate number by race day.
• Ride at .80-1 and let TSS sort itself out. In other words, prove you can ride faster by running well off the bike...but listen to the advice here about turning bike and run pacing down for the heat. That is a bit of an art but you have plenty of time to learn more about your body over the next several weeks. That should help you.

William Jenks

OK, to be totally fair to Randy (and other readers of this thread), the conditions at Randy's race (which I also did) sucked. It was hot and windy, except during the run where it was super hot and not windy at all. Randy could easily have nailed a RR under more moderate conditions and had a good idea of how fast he was going to finished that got set back by the heat and wind (and possibly the smaller number of hills on his RR).

I think Keith and Rich have it right, though. Back off a bit on the IF.

The brutal math of the TSS points (if you really believe that 180 is the target!) is that if you are faster you can get away with going harder relative to your own ability, i.e., the shorter estimated time lets you go at higher IF. This is crushing mentally for those of us who are trying to get faster because you WANT to go the higher percentage of a higher FTP...which might be 10 or 15 W more than we should be going.

I look at people's race reports and I see more "very good to excellent" races where people undershoot their bike power a bit than "way better than I expected" ones where they overshoot it a bit. For a little perspective on this - although he's in a totally different class than either me or Randy - have a look at Coach Patrick's Texas IM report. He undershot power on the bike and finished in 9:30 or whatever it was. (That course is flat and his FTP is high, so he still went very fast...but the point remains that he undershot the target IF and still did well.)

At KS the last two years, I've undershot my target Watts and had pretty good (not world-beating, but pretty good) races. (For the record, I've also had very good races where I was on target...so it's not just that I overestimate my FTP all the time!)

My limited experience is that the hotter/nastier the conditions, the more the HIM advice about never cooking yourself and that the race doesn't start until late in the run becomes more and more true. The reason for this is straightforward. The usual IM advice is based on the fact that if you blow up on the IM run, you tend to blow up big. On the HIM run, if you're well trained, you don't blow up as big. But the hotter (etc) the conditions, the greater likelihood for the big blowup, even on the HIM. Hence, some of the greater conservatism if the IM tactic may be called for.

rpickard

Thanks to everyone who has replied this is good stuff. As I reflect on the above advise I come up with my downfall as a failure to recognize a very important component to triathlons."mother nature" Was I time chasing yes and no, Yes I was wanting to PR but was I watching my bike time over my NP no. The big issue with this race is its a hard one to match hills wise we can come close where I live but we just don't have that much climb in a 56 mile stretch. I feel my biggest down fall was not reacting to the change in temperature thinking I could overcome and that I was ready for this. Once I seen what the ambient was or was going to be before I started my run I should of back down my goal watts and prepared myself to have a better run "point taken I get that now" The good news is that I have schedule 2 HIM before my 1st IM and now is the time to find my limits and learn not during the IM thus the questions here. I realise I need to get a handle on really how to race long distance events so I can set myself up for a decent IM finish. I have choose to do a multiple loop flat RR#1 this coming weekend where there are no hills what so ever. I am going to set my IF at .80 and hold it. And then perfect the 6 mile run and see how it goes. William you know the course "Pigman" that I am doing next so we both know the heat will be a factor almost for sure. I think this is a rolling hills course nothing like we seen in KS so it should be a better overall bike course to narrow down my IF and NP to give myself a better run. I picked IMAZ for a reason lack of large hills so I would not spike my watts or atleast a limited opportunity to do so if I raced smart. William and Pigman advise? Once again Thank You everyone for your input!!!

coop6

Randy, I'll be at Pigman. It's been a few years since I've been at that race, but I remember the bike course as being rolling. There are two bigger hills that I recall that slow you down quite a bit, but nothing crazy. Last time I did that race, there were 30 mph wind gusts and driving rain, so perhaps those few hills really aren't as big as I remember. Or maybe they are worse There is a long hill entering the park, so you go down and up it at the beginning and end of both the bike and run. Be ready for it at the end of the run.

As far as hill loops in our area, you can't beat Winterset. It might be a bit of a drive for you, but if you feel like you need to practice riding your goal IF on hills, that's the place to do it. Way harder than Pigman, but keep it in mind for future races. There is a loop in Dallas county near where I live that's nice and rolling. If you ever want to come practice there before Pigman, let me know.

Good luck with your RR this weekend. I hope you can find a time to do it when it's not beastly hot. I bumped mine up to last weekend because I'm going to be out of town this weekend. It was hot, and I struggled with that but it went well.