Tues -week 3 VO2 bike
Did my Tuesday vo2 workouts a day early. The
instructions were to hit 120% for the 3 minute intervals. That
was a small bit different from week 1 which were at the 5 minute
max effort level which for me meant 5 watts higher this week.
Not sure if that was the reason, but getting through the 3 minute
intervals involved much pain and suffering.
The 10 x 30:30 at the same 120% seemed easy in
comparison.
instructions were to hit 120% for the 3 minute intervals. That
was a small bit different from week 1 which were at the 5 minute
max effort level which for me meant 5 watts higher this week.
Not sure if that was the reason, but getting through the 3 minute
intervals involved much pain and suffering.
The 10 x 30:30 at the same 120% seemed easy in
comparison.
0
Comments
Ok that was a bitch! (sorry...)
5' FTP=295
DId:
#1 287 (not all out)
#2 292
#3 298
#4 296(everyting I had left)
Ave 99% of 5' Power
10x30/30 @ 120%
1:00 total TSS 68
the progression just doesn't seem right; going from 3x3 at 5' power to 4x3 120%, but maybe that is just the brutality of the program.
I did find this in the first power clinic email though:
"For 3' VO2 intervals, target your 5' max power but do not exceed it."
Anyway, I think I am going to try to catch Coach P during the chat and see what we are really suppose to do.
Your 5' power is likely not that different from 120% of FTP. I'm pretty confident that it isn't a typo.
For those of us with a low roof (high ceiling) it can be a significant difference. For me, that difference is 5%. That would be like suddenly going 6:37 instead of 6:58 minutes for my run interval miles. Tough to imagine such a jump in a week. Luckily, I'm a week behind in the program, so I can wait and see what the official word is!
My problem is, I'll do whatever the coaches say - I've had too many years playing HTFU to back down now.
I hear you, Al! I'm the same way. I've pretty much convinced myself that if I do what they tell me to do, I'll be fine. Now, Linda just keeps reminding me to not lower my head too much, or I might miss the big brick wall!
In the chat tonight, Coach P confirmed that it's 120% of FTP.
Mike
Oof. that's a 10 watt jump for me.
might need an extra day to get my legs back from the weekend antics.
That was a FREAKING WORKOUT!! I don't know if it just was that hard or if I had mental issues today but very tough to get through the 3X4 @ 120%. Maybe it was the sore leg still.(those not in the Nov. group refer to week 12 bike thread).
My 120% is 317
All rest was at or above 60% which I think made it a real bitch
Well done, Drillbit!
I'm having mixed feelings about this morning. The prescribed workout was at 120%, which for me was just about 290. This is quite a bit lower than the 305 5'max power target from last week's work. I did my 4 intervals at 293, 292, 292, 289, and really had to grit it out on the last one.
The good: I know that this was a solid workout, driving all the right 'raise the roof to get faster' adaptations.
The tough: putting the data into the weekly interval spreadsheet, and seeing the 95% average on the summary tab, when lots of other folks are putting up #'s much closer to 100%. Knowing that I probably should have been pushing just a bit harder.
Overall, feeling good. Tough workouts always feel better when they're done!
Mike
Tough workout!
Moved from the 120% last week to the 5' power target this week. Much harder, especially on the 4th 3' interval- legs stinging more than I've had in a long time. It made the 30/30s seem almost like a break!
Glad I was able to hit 99.5% of the mark this week. Next week will be strange trying to do the workout without a powermeter in Sarasota at a conference but at least I've got some good HR data and clear idea of the pain required to match today's effort with 1 more 3' block.
Good work everyone!
John
You guys are awesome!
I really struggled today but forced myself to keep going because I knew you guys would get it done. I had a bike fit this weekend and some pretty significant changes to my position (that I'm not sure I agree with). I was going to blame my struggle on the bike fit, but it seems everyone had issues with todays workout.
I used an ERG file like usual and set it to 120% which is only 3 watts higher than my 5 min test. First 2 went fine.
Third got real tough real quick. I had to get out of the saddle at about 2:30 in just to keep the pedals moving. My caddence dropped to about 60 but I pushed through.
Fourth one was just torture from about 15 seconds in I was hurting. I was done to a cadence of 50 by 1:30 in so I took a 30 second break and then attacked the last 1:30. I probably spent more than half of the last 1:30 out of the saddle and at 60 rpm as it was all I could do to keep the pedals moving.
8 of the 30/30s were no big deal, but the last two hurt really bad.
Entire workout (212 watts):
Duration: 59:59
Work: 764 kJ
TSS: 81 (intensity factor 0.904)
Norm Power: 240
VI: 1.13
Pw:HR: n/a
Pa:HR: n/a
Distance: 24.537 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 87 368 212 watts
Speed: 4.5 28.8 24.5 mph
Pace 2:05 13:25 2:27 min/mi
for me...120% is slightly lower than my 5' power test....so I stuck with the 5' power number to be safe. First 3 went fine, the 4th started getting tough about 1' in....hung on for dear life for the last 2'. 30/30's seemed OK after that.
Finished it off with 10' @85%....which is still feeling relatively easy to me. For some reason, I'm happy and scared about that at the same time.
1:15 total workout....263 is my 5' power. Intervals were:
1st - 266
2nd - 271
3rd - 265
4th - 267
During the chat last night, I am pretty sure that Patrick said if there is a difference between 5' max and 120% then use the higher number. My 5' max is 290 while my 120% is about 303. I went for the 120% this morning. It wasn't pretty but I got it done. Will look at and post the data when I get home tonight.
Nice work everyone!!! This Power Hack thing is hard work.
Wei
Thanks, Wei! I got on to the chat late last night (had to change the PT battery before 24 started!), so I must have missed that part.
Mike
Given how hard we are all working, I am not really sure if I am given you good news or bad news.
Good luck with that!
Wei
I guess since the idea is to raise my VO2 from the 115% where it is now to 120%, I should start aiming for that. Being a week behind, and using the CT pre-programming "do it or quit" method, I have started upping the (for me this week) 3 x 3'(3') intervals from the 115% level towards 120%. Got it all done today, but as you all note, it sure takes some concentration to finish. TSS was 78.9 for a 68 minute workout. I stopped about 12 minutes earlier than planned due to my CompuTrainer on-going difficulties, which is due for repair after this Thursday's workout. The 30/30s this week were a little easier the before. As this was my first set of VO2 intervals, I've got nothing to compare it to. But I do now see the value of the coaches' saying "Go easy on the running, and just focus on the bike sets". Doing that, this program is still (barely) within the envelope of do-able.
Data: 5' power is 234, 120% is 244
• 236
• 235
• 239
Environmental note: doing this in the morning means a colder time of it out on the deck - 39F, but still I was comfortable in just bib shorts. Last night's "24" and the final stage of TDUnder got me thru the rough spots - or rather, the sound tracks did, as I couldn't look up during the intervals.
My 120% and 5min power are almost identical so did not have any issues there. Got through all four 3 min intervals at about 102% but felt like puking on the last two. Also only did 54% avg ftp on the rests in between. Someone please explain to my why it is important to get 60% during the rest intervals. I have done a lot of reading and can't find anyone else who cares how hard your rest intervals are when you are doing vo2 training. Also for me I would not be able to increase my power on my intervals, infact I know I would be dropping power on the last interval if I forced myself to stay at 60% during the rest. But today by dropping to 53-55% during the rest I was able to make the last interval the strongest. Although I thought I would die at the end. I would appreciate your thoughts on this.
I cheat on those rests as well. I set the CT erg file to progress evenly over the rest interval from 56% to 59%. But my plan is to try raising the start of the rest by 1% each week. At that level, it's probably just a mind game, but every little bit helps. My goal is to BE strongest (and FEEL tiredest) on the last interval, that's the way I approach all intervals, be it swim, bike or run. Falling apart on the last interval is something "up with which I will not put". (To quote WInston Churchill)
And while I am no expert on this stuff, keeping at 60%+ makes the entire interval tougher for me, and since the motto here is that work works, it must be good.
Plus I suspect one looses a great deal of the training effect by doing easy spinning on the rest portions rather than keeping the power at 60%.
Al, glad to know I am not the only cheater
. But from a phisiologic standpoint. I don't see the point. I know at least one theory is if you keep it at 60% it holds your vo2 longer even during part of the rest interval so your overall time spent at your vo2 is longer. But I don't think there is any research to prove that. And say you actually do keep your rest intervals at 60% but like I was saying your last one or two intervals drop by 10watts so you can maintain the rest interval. That seems counter productive to me. I am pretty simple minded on my intervals I want to see higher numbers every time or at least stable numbers. If I see a drop as I go along I am not happy. Especially if that drop is because it came at the cost of my "rest" interval.
I am no expert either just voicing my thoughts, and probably showing my ignorance, on the subject. But I would have to disagree with you. I think the vast majority of the training effect comes from the hard interval. The rest by definition should get you ready for the next hard interval, it should not prevent you from performing that interval correctly. Look at Matt Acona's post, I consider him to be one of the most outstanding athletes on this site and expect he will crush it at Kona this year. (Matt not trying to talk behind your back) Anyway in his post today he says he had to rest during a interval. How do do you get more benefit by resting in a interval then by just doing the appropriate rest inbetween intervals and crushing the interval itself. That is what doesn't make sense to me.
@ Todd: Cuz the coaches said so!
No, seriously, I think that some of the foundation has to do with the notion of vVO2max drift presented here
Article
But I am pretty sure that the reference you are looking for is here
Other Article
The article basically says that if you do VO2max intervals at about half the duration you could hold to exhaustion, and alternate with recoveries at 60%, typical subjects are able to do about 2 -2.5 times the amount of work at VO2max (therefore, producing greater gains). In this study, participants saw significant gains in their velocity at VO2max for running (analogous to power at VO2max for cycling). Enjoy.
Mike
I think it is a great question Todd and I am glad you brought it up.
I am very dissappointed when I have to take a break during an interval, and this happened not only today but at least once in the last two saturday rides as well. It's a pattern that I don't like and It is very frustrating to me as last year I did 100% of the workouts without ever taking a break like this during a work interval. I've justified it in my head as I'm better to take the break than to quit or not finish an interval, but I'm still not happy about it.
On the Saturday workouts I don't think changing the watts I rest at would make any difference... 10 x 30/30 followed by 2 x 20 is just something I haven't been able to do without a break, but I'm sure as hell going to keep trying until I can and I think I am actually getting close to being able to do it.
For this workout (4 x 3'), I'm not sure, but if I would have rested a little more (i.e. less than 60%) after the 3rd interval I may have been able to suck it up and push through the last one.
I'm not sure if I am the best example for this though as I also introduced another level of complexity because my bike fit has changed since last week. My seat is now 2.5 cm higher to bring my knee angle to 150. Everything else was adjusted accordingly so I have the same drop and other angles as before.
All fair points on longer or easier rest. To the best of my understanding, this is the thought process behind this (Coaches, please smack me if I am a bit out of line on this one).
There is a finite amount of work one can do at any workload above Threshold. At VO2max, it is about 5 - 8 minutes. So, to improve power at VO2max, you could do a 5 minute interval, exhaust your capacity for work at that level, and then take a full recovery, and try it again, ad nauseum. To truly recover from that 5 minute effort, you would need at least 10 if not 12 minutes (remember the feeling after the Power Clinic Test).
So, in order to accumulate about 12 minutes at VO2max intensity, you can either go for 2 5 minute intervals, with 12 minute intervals in between, and finish off with a 2 minute interval (a total of 36 minutes), or you can do 4 x 3 (3) in 18 minutes, and move on.
So, time efficiency is one piece. Another is the do-ability of the workout. I have no idea if I could have done a second all-out 5 minute interval after the first one in the Clinic Test.
After do-ability is the idea of work-rate. The less you get full recovery, the closer it comes to being like a continuous interval, which affects how your body is going to average out the effort, i.e. it feels harder, which drives more adaptation.
Does that make sense?
Mike
First Matt you are right seat height may have played a big role in your performance even if it is right, just the adaptation. Anyway I look forward to your race reports for this year.
Michael, thanks for the articles and explanations. I have a few observations. First they say that the information should be transferable to other sports. Are there similar studies on cycling? We know that vo2 max is not transferable between sports. An elite runner is not necessarlily a elite biker etc. Also back to the subject of 60% work interval, I did not see anywhere in the article that gave a objective reason for the 60% it seemed like a arbitrary choice probably based on there own experience. Maybe I missed a explanation somewhere. In the second article there is a statement: "Overtraining syndrom is often provoked by daily high intensity interval training with little recovery between repititions" I know we are not doing this daily but we are training most days between bike, run etc. You said "The less you get full recovery, the closer it comes to being like a continuous interval," I agree and think that is probably good at ftp levels but is it good at vo2max levels? I heard Greg Lemond speak and he said most of the physiologic response you are looking at getting is at the end of the interval. That is where you are getting the benefit of the interval. The rest interval is to let you recharge and be able to get back to that same level again. If you can't get there than you have had enough for the day. That is kind of a summary. The point is if you turn your vo2max work into a long continuous interval don't you risk overtraining and actually negating the benefit of the vo2 max work?
I'm thinking that since Saturdays bike in the Nov OS week 13 has no FTP intervals and Sunday is a rest day, I may take that as a blessing in disguise and get some recovery in.
Anyone else feeling these workouts catching up with them?
I was shocked by how hard I found this workout. My 120% and VO2 are only 2 watts off. I taregeted the higher (VO2) and hit it on the first and then had a progressive slide from there. I found every interval more challenging. I held my rest watts at 60% for first 2 RI then 3rd was just a watt or 2 low, 4th was in the 55% range, I was toast.
@John D.- I agree- after those intervals, the 30/30s (which I do as 1'/1') was easy.
@Matt- I have been messing around with a new seat. The current position is miserable, but I didn't know it until I got aero for the intervals. It made the workout hell and I was thinking that was my problem. But reading the other posts- no such luck.
@Mike - Yeah, it was disheartening for me to post those numbers, but I am hoping that the work I am doing is enough.
Todd, fair question. My interpretation of the article is that the 60% # is chosen to balance how long you can accumulate time at PVO2max. Rest higher than that, you can't go as long.
So, the open question then is, what happens if you rest lower than that? The best answer is, I don't know, but I have a guess. If you took the opposite extreme, and did 4 x 3' (3') at 120% on, and 0% (stop pedaling) off, the workout becomes quite different. Now, you've essentially got near full recoveries, so that the 3' 'on' part never really brings you close to that point where you are at the end of a 5' all-out interval.
So, my interpretation of the work done is that the 60% 'off' means that your workout more closely resembles a continuous session done to exhaustion, whereas a session with complete rest inbetween brings you close to exhaustion, but never lets you get there. If that's so, and if you believe that Lemond knows what he's talking about re: ex phys (sometimes yes, sometimes no), then the 60% rest gives you a closer approximation to doing work to get that real benefit of the 'end of the interval'.
Of course, this doesn't answer the question "what if I can't hold the #'s during the 120%, shouldn't I increase my rest?" I don't have the answer to that, but I'd say that, to stick with the spirit of the way the Clinic is being designed (and was tested last year), I'd suggest dialing down the 120% a touch, and keeping the rest up. If you're failing in the middle of the interval (been there), you probably went out harder than you should have. Maybe due to poor sleep, dehydration, different workout timing, life's daily stress, or internal drive in that moment, you don't have the full 120% in you. You'll still get the benefit from going at 118% or so. Maybe that's where we should be starting each interval, and bringing it up through the course of the 3 minutes, so that if we're destroyed that day, we can still make the duration.
Yes, we risk overreaching with this type of workout. This is hard, and deliberately so. Overtraining? Not likely. But that's a different point for a different day. This risk is partially managed by RnP's monitoring, and having test-driven the protocol last year. And partially managed by our own ability to look at our situation, and adjust as necessary.
Mike
wow. When I looked at workout I thought this would not be that tough. My 120% and 5' are only 4 watts apart! The 4x3' was tough. NO OTHER WAY TO SAY IT! Hit all 4 on/over the 120% so felt pretty good about it. The 10x30/30 seemed like a cake walk. With 15' of WU and 10' spin I was done and had to head out!
Getting a bike fit tonight (RETUL) so Thursday is gonna feel way different. Fitter said to come ready to ride....
!! Hopefully will produce some more watts on top of what EN is producing. Hovering so close to that 300 number on the 5' that I can TASTE it!!