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Need FTP race advice for IMOO

Hi, I did a couple FTP tests in the Feb and April on the Trainer road virtual power training device.  I did not own a PM at that point.  My 1st FTP came in at 265ish, and my last one I hit 279 indoors.  I then got a PM and have been riding up to this point with it outside.  I had all my metrics set off the 279 FTP test I did on trainer road.  I have doing my long rides at 66-67 IF, and have been feeling good, not to taxed, and feeling stronger each weekend.  But through this period, I have always had a feeling that the 279 was not realistic #, because I could never really get close to that top end on many workouts.  I was always riding in zone 1 or maybe 2..zone 3 was a big stretch.............SO, today I did a FTP test outdoors on the bike I am riding for IMOO... conditions were perfect.., no traffic, no stops, flat course.... I left nothing in the locker room..all out for 42 minutes including the 2 minute rest between sets.  my normalized power reading came in at 240.  When I then transfer that to riding IM at 70%, it is way below what I have been training at.  .....At the "false" reading of 279, week after week, I kept backing it down on the IF scale, to where at 65-67 I felt right.  Now I know I have not been running 26 miles after these rides, but my only focus on the bike is to get off with enough to do a good marathon.  I have in the past at IMOO left it all out on the bike course, and that is so very, very ugly, so I have some experience of being stupid out there.  I have been training on the bike only one thought...  lead me to a good run....what are your thoughts on my situation???????

Thanks!!!!!!!!    

Comments

  • Brian, a few thoughts.

    1) you're testing in the middle of an IM build, on what are likely very tired legs. The 240 number is probably lower than what you could put out with a little rest.

    2) 65% of 279 is the same as 70% of 259, which may be a little closer to what you could achieve in an accurate FTP test.

    3) you've done a race rehearsal or two, right? How did the 6 mile run feel after that.

    At this point, you've probably got a pretty good sense of what the wattage you're holding in your workouts is, as far as goal IM watts. Go with that, and if you're concerned, knock the goal watts down a touch.
  •  Suggest you ride at 68% of that new FTP for the first 2hrs then dial it up a slight tick to 69-70%. Review my notes from last year, in the '11 group about riding with a low VI, etc. you can make a lot of time on the course by not coasting 

  •  I have been struggling with similar question as I try to decide my race day FTP....I did most of my early testing on Trainer Road without the benefit of a powermeter....and I have used those numbers for all of my training...that number was 243......an unsuccesful roadtest (wanted to use a race but had power meter issue)...led me to lower that to 230

    However on my RR ...under hot/humid and unrested conditions I had to dial back the intensity considerably...and while I had a good final RR relative to running well off the bike...I was well under goal watts on the bike.....

    and am trying to decide to I set a low target for the bike at Louisville or do I go with my 230 numbers?  Whats the downside to underestimating your FTP for htis purpose by 10 watts? 20watts? 

     

     

     

     

  • Posted By Joseph Lombardi on 15 Aug 2012 11:02 AM

     and am trying to decide to I set a low target for the bike at Louisville or do I go with my 230 numbers?  Whats the downside to underestimating your FTP for htis purpose by 10 watts? 20watts? 

     

     

     

     

    I'd say that the downside for 10-20W is a better run.  There is an exponential increase in effort to hold higher watts and you really won't be gaining THAT much speed for the effort.  Better to drop it down a litle and ensure that you're running the whole marathon and if you have anything left the last few miles then pick it up some.

  • Another option:
    If you use WKO+ and download the PM data, you should be able to get a fairly close accounting of your true outdoor FTP.

    Look at the PM data for the past 28 days and break it into 5 watt buckets.
    Where there is a significant drop off from one watt bucket to the next after the peak, then the last tall peak is where your FTP actually is.
    I have been using this technique with accuracy during the season to double check everything.
    Of course, I am not out to KQ.
  • Posted By Michele Cellai on 15 Aug 2012 01:34 PM

    Another option:

    If you use WKO+ and download the PM data, you should be able to get a fairly close accounting of your true outdoor FTP.



    Look at the PM data for the past 28 days and break it into 5 watt buckets.

    Where there is a significant drop off from one watt bucket to the next after the peak, then the last tall peak is where your FTP actually is.

    I have been using this technique with accuracy during the season to double check everything.

    Of course, I am not out to KQ.

    Well I'm not so sure about this method Michele...I have a question about it and will post it here as well as in a separate thread...I agree that it is a method and I have used it as well.....I understand its application....however...if I consider my training over the past 28 days...leading up to IMLou...I have added alot of volume at much lower intensity levels...ie. Z1-2-3 and very littel Z4 ....If I use the chart as typcial...it would give me a much lower FTP reading....I think????... If the last time I tested was prior to this period I wouldn't have a alternative read and has my FTP really dropped off in 4 weeks?

    This change from Fast to Far...when looking only at the past 28days....impacts all sorts of numbers on the WKO dashboard (ie. avg. power/wt ratio); especially I added a high volume Bike Week as well - 300 miles in 5 days all at Z1-2 (mostly)....I wonder what the coaches would say on this?

    Perhaps I should use a longer time frame...like the full 10-12 weeks of race training?  Thoughts?

     

  • Joe - The "Precipitous Drop" method to gauge FTP is more accurate for those who don't 'ride the training plan.' If you go out and ride hard/hammer constantly, then the graph in WKO is apropos. However, if you have been riding at Z3 watts predominantly, that is what your chart will show.

    FWIW - I would go with the lower number and have a better run. IIRC, you are a strong runner so this will play to your strengths. Like CoachR says, 'If you think you biked too easy, prove it on the run."
  • I like Michelle's answer, but agree there are some limitations. However, If yo have been doing FTP Wed right and FTP on Sat +Endurance and Sunday ABP, then the 28 day rolling should work. If you have just been riding steady however, that's what you get. That said, the point of the test before the race is only to adjust your FTP.

    I can't recommend this most excellent article by a great looking guy (just added to Wiki under Tapering section):

    http://www.endurancenation.us/blog/bike/fatigue-ftp-your-final-weeks/

    Basically I race IM at like .68 of my OS/peak FTP...so while I hit 345 in the winter, by the time the race rolls around and volume is done I am probably closer to 320 or 325. It's not that I not FIT any more, just that I have SHIFTED MY FITNESS from FTP to FIVE HOUR POWER for my race. image

    That said, curious to see if my minimalist approach for Kona with 2 x FTP and one long ride will allow me to keep that FTP up right to the race...could be interesting.
  • I just checked the calendar and you have 1, 2, 3 weekends before the race. I recommend that you take the advice above and then do your final RR, or something close to it, with these numbers.

    In other words, you still have a few long rides in which to validate what is best for you. When I was training for IMWI last year I had my FTP, derived from several methods but I also 2 x race files from having raced IMWI in the past, plus 2 x high quality RR rides on the course during our camp and my final RR ride here in LA. That long ride data was more valuable, in my opinion than FTP x 74%

  •  Great article...exactly the discussion I was having in my head...

  • Thanks for all the feedback...I am going with CoachR...use the new FTP (240) at IF of 70..after all, IMOO bike course is not a cakewalk, plus I get to haul this 56 yr old body around for 26 miles afterwards..I will have plenty of opportunity to expend all the mojo I have that day
  • I did my last IMOO RR on Sunday. I altered my FTP down from 279 to 240 to reflect the previous weeks FTP test. Best RR I have ever done. Did not feel pushed at all on the bike. As per coachR, I wanted to keep it at .70 IF. I rode a hilly route, trying to duplicate madison as much as possible. On some hills, they were so steep that i had to come out of the saddle, and that pushed my watts up, or i would have gone backwards down the hill. I ended up at .75 IF, which if you throw out all computer reading, I felt fine with. The 6 mile run afterwards was fine also..1st RR I have done where I felt I could have just kept running without much difficulty. My problem is this..My TSS reading for 112 miles at 6:17 and 17.8 mph was 351. Is that just a factor of riding higher that .70 on a FTP that might be a bit low?????? I actually felt I could run a pretty decent marathon off the bike at this pace, and if race day could go like this, i will be the happiest guy in Madison....... Houston, is there a problem with that TSS so high?????

    Thanks!
  • Coach touches on this in the race resources (I think) about rides that go over 3 hours are going to push that TSS a little higher. I rode really close to that last year and ran a 4:15 marathon...so not sure what kind of run you are looking for, but I think you will be in the wheel house with that. Just my $.02 from my race last year. Good luck!!!
  • @ Brian The TSS "assumes" your FTP estimate is your actual FTP. If your actual FTP is higher than the 240 you estimated, then your TSS is really lower than the 351 (and likewise the IF of 0.75 is actually lower than that).
    This is one of the reasons we do RR x2 to make sure we can run well after we pratice our proposed bike split.
    Make sense?
  • Brian-
    just my 2 cents.
    I rode St George at .67 IF and with a TSS of 310 and still ran a decent marathon. Didn't really hit any sort of wall cause it was there all day. You have raced Wisc before and will be fine. We will be on each others wheels.
  • What we've found over the years is that if you're riding at <~.70 IF and you are on the bike for a length of time that has you going over 300 TSS for the ride, you're still ok. For example:</p>

    • Riding at .74 for 5:50 and rack up 310 TSS (just made that up, no math) = you're most likely fooked
    • Riding at .68 for 6:30 and rack up 340 TSS = you're likely fine.

    In other words, not all TSS points are created equal. So 310 TSS points created by riding at a higher intensity is different from 310 TSS points created by riding at a lower intensity.

  • Ultimately, this comes down to the fact that TSS is a mathematical construct with a particular formalism that has no particular physiological basis. It works really well as a model within certain limits, but sometimes we push the model past its limits. Clearly, Coach Rich and others have noted that below IF of ~.7 the whole construct isn't as well fit to physiology as when the IF is a bit higher. Also, there may be issues with the model performing for long or short times. [/soapbox] :-)
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