Run training philosophy

Gunnar Pritsch

 Coaches

 

Ok. I think I figured out how to start a new thread.

Here is my somewhat philosophical question:

What is the best approach to develop a good marathon time (as part of IM, and maybe stand alone).

One school of thought argues that one would need to achieve "critical volume" - and this is perhaps anywhere between 30-50 miles/week, as a condition  to a really good run.  Typically, marathon only programs would end up in a similar place.

Another school says run volume doesnt matter, do 3 runs/week, limit the long run to 90 minutes, and you will be injury free and have a good race.  Looking at an EN trainingplan, that is perhaps EN view?

A third school suggests that you need indeed to build up run strength but best way is to combine a limited run volume approach (say 20-30 miles / week MAX) with yoga and strength training.  My doc thinks that way and he's a good athlete and a very good doc.

For context, I add: finished IM Frankfurt in 2011 in 11:56 with a 4:10 run, and IM NYC in 2012 in 11:17 with a 4:30something run, which was disappointing; and signed up for NYC Marathon in Nov 2012.

Could you shed some light on your view on this?

 

many thx

 

Joseph Lombardi

 Not a coach...but just my two cents...coming from a running background...I know I will never improve on my Open Marathon times within the context of IM training....I can only hope to narrow the difference between my Open Marathon pace and my IM Steady Pace...and I believe the ONLY way to accomplish that is through better bike fitness...while maintaining run fitness at current level....

...an alternative idea would be to have a run focused part of the year during which you try to lower your open Marathon PR...then carry that  into the EN Outseason.................. 

 

....unless you are a pro or have a lifestyle situation that allows time for the added volume/quality (and recovery) on top of the current program....

Peter Greagg

@ Gunnar — have a look at this Wiki and then ask specific questions here.
http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/Wiki/tabid/108/Default.aspx?topic=Long+Run+Training+for+Ironman,+EN+Version

Steve West

x2 what Joseph said. I too come from a marathon background and have come to understand that running 26.2 in an IM is an entirely different beast than an open marathon. For most people there is no way to do both well at the same time. That's part of the reason why doing open marathons in an IM build is frowned upon in the haus.

Can you improve your open marathon with a blend of intensity and volume (option 1) - certainly but not if you are building your bike. Can you improve your IM run and bike at the same time? Absolutely. Here in EN they really got it down - build speed with intensity and endurance thru frequency but dont crush yourself with volume while building the bike - something will pop and your season will fizzle or end.....

scott dinhofer

Well it doesn't really answer your question but it is an interesting concept.
http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=26792&PageNum=1

Peter Greagg

@ Scott — I don't doubt that any program that includes lots of hard running can lead to improved performances.

But the important issue, IMO, is whether that program has an consistent improvement coupled with low chances of injury. Eg Daniels that we use.

BTW, I alway find it interesting that people tend to discount Lydiard. He did train 17 Olympic medal winning athletes ranging in distances from 800 m to the marathon — not bad for a coach from New Zealand.

GMAN 19030

There were a couple of recent ST threads that I thought were thought provoking related to this subject:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4108438

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4122008 ;

robin sarner

 For me, higher intensity and shorter distance works.

Bear in mind that training for a stand alone marathon can hurt follow-up ironman race.

Paul Hough

I'm with Peter all the way. For a stand alone open marathon, throw out all tri-training theories, all new age quackery, and go back to Lydiard! Buiild your base for 8-12 weeks, then 6 weeks of hillwork, then 4 weeks of long intervals (strength), then 2 weeks of sharpening/taper...then kick butt. I had a successful running "career" in my 20s following mostly Lydiard, including a 2:35 and 2:29 marathon 3 weeks apart.

mgraffeo

As with any question of this ilk, there is only one appropriate answer: it depends.

1) depends on what part of your season you're talking about. OutSeason, General Prep, or Race Prep have different demands and different focii

2) depends on your history in the sport/athletic history in general. Do you have a humongous aerobic base, or are you coming from a different background

3) depends on the quality of your movement patterns. Do you have weak stabilizer muscles (ie. glute med, transverse abs), are you able to isolate the hip flexors to lift the leg, have you developed a 'quad-dominant' motor pattern? Building lots of fitness on top of poor movement tends to break down at limits like the open marathon or the IM.

4) depends on the amount of time you have and the amount of time you spend biking. As triathletes, we can substitute some aerobic volume with time on the bike, but it helps to keep up the frequency of running. 30-40 mpw sounds like a great goal, but for some, that's not nearly enough, and for others, they'll break down before hitting it regularly.

Bottom line, you need to learn to know yourself, and to do that requires experimentation. The best advice you can get is first to make sure you're moving well, without any gross compensation patterns and/or weaknesses. Then, to make running a part of your weekly routine as frequently as you can recover from it. Then, build out a long run you can do repeatedly, and finally add some get-faster work to that.