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Ultra Runners...

I'm looking for guidance on a nutrition plan for a 50 mile race in October.  Nutrition has always been my weakest sport in triathlon-and with a 50 mile race ahead of me, I don't want to screw it up early in the race and have to suffer some long miles towards then end.  I've read a couple Ultra running books (most recently Relentless Forward Progress) and basically have an understanding that its is crucial to eat a lot early on in the race-but what?  And how much?  I've read that many ultra runners take in solid foods (as a triathlete, I'm usually on gus and the like).  What would be recommended?  And cals/hr?  

Any suggestions would be great.  Thanks so much image 

Comments

  • I've read that Dean Karnazes likes to get pizza delivered to a street corner - unsliced and timed to meet him on the run. He takes it and rolls it like a burrito and eats the whole thing while running.......

    No, not something I could do but was fun reading......

    For my only 50 so far (JFK in '08) I tried PB&J, pretzels, and potatoes. None of that set well so I kept up with doing my usual Gu at 5 mile intervals. Tried and proven for me. I know how to keep my gut in check with Gu and water. Other stuff never seems to work. Finished strong @ 9:39 then went and ate 3/4 of a pizza and several Cokes.
  • Like Steve, I tried lots of stuff in prep for my one and only 50 miler (North Face 50, DC in 2011), but ended up doing GU every 35-40 minutes. Had two bottles of frozen Mountain Dew in my special needs bags which I crushed @ ~ 20 and 35. Then did water and gatorade at the aid stations. In hindsight (and with a year of EN under my belt), I would have added some sodium intake into my plan and probably looked to switch the water in my fuel belt to some sort of electrolyte drink. Have fun and looking forward to your race report!
  • Did a 50 miler last year and it was a blast.  I did do a lot of solids during training and during the race.  Unlike my first IM which I just did in Louisville10 days ago in which everything I did was for speed's sake, my nutrition plan for the ultra was more about feeling good, not feeling hungry, and staying hydrated.

    I did all sports drink (except the last 10 miles or so I mixed in some Coke) and hydrated at a rate similar to regular run training which for me is in the range of 5-10oz every 15 minutes depending on the weather.  Then I would take in about 100-200 calories/hour on top of the liquid calories.  This consisted of small PB&J or turkey sandwiches, pretzels, M&M's and bananas.  Some of this was based on what they would have at the aid stations.  It was fun to use these things in training.

    They had great volunteers at the race I was at and one guy was frying eggs on a portable camp stove and making egg sandwiches.  Smelled delicious to me and so I ate half of one - big mistake.  I had to slow down for about 20 minutes because of nausea.  Thankfully I never threw up and when the nausea passed I was fine and learned my lesson.  That was at about mile 30 and I finished strong.

    I used the EN/QT2 Nutrition Webinar for my recent IM and had good success, so I would probably incorporate some of those priniciples into my next ultra.  I might use an occasional caffeinated gel or a Powerbar instead of a sandwich.  I would especially adhere to the carb loading diet tips discussed in the webinar on the days before and morning before you race.  But I would likely still take in more solid food during the race than in a tri.  Depending on the heat and your tolerance for sport drink I might also take in some SaltStick capsules.

    Good luck and have a blast.

     

  • Lauren - v. Cool that you're going for it! My plan for the 50 miler is to include salt stick - amount will depend on temps. Gels definitely and I like regular Gatorade the longer I run. Going to try some m&m's and pretzels this weekend. May also pack orange slices and a few pieces of cooked potato with salt in special needs bag on 50k trail (north face endurance challenge) run in 2 weeks. Saw the potato idea at Dances w Dirt a few years ago when volunteering. Not sure what else so will keep watching this thread for other ideas - thanks for posting the question.
  • I know this gal personally, so if you need advice for a seasoned ultra distance runner, I can put you in contact with her. http://www.marathonnation.us/
  • Hi Lauren:

    Congrats on your adventure.  I have done several ultra's in the past and nutrition to me varies based on temp, elevation gain, waht I can carry, etc.  I was on my way to run Western States 100 and got injured.  Then found EN and became a tri geek again and fell out of ultras.

    Great Wiki post from Hedman here.  Mike is an EN guy and lives here in NorCal.  It is a good read.

    Like everything else we do, you have to test, test, test.  I used to eat between 300 and 400 calories/hour during an ultra.  I like liquid calories and I LOVE Gummy Bears.  For food, I at mostly at the aid stations.  I know that I CAN NOT handle chocolate like the Oreos they usually have.  But a few nuts, potato chips, 1/4 a PB&J always seemed to get me through.  But Gummy Bear ALWAYS worked when I would start bonking or got tired.  Plus they are easy to carry.

    Check out this site for nuggets of info.  Great stuff there.  Looks kinda 1990's but don;t let that fool you.  Run100's.com

    Couple of tips:

    1 - Break a pencil in half and wrap about 12" of duct tape around it.  It helps with blisters and other unforeseen issues.

    2 - Pacers are great, but controll the fast ones.  If they join you at mile 25 they are fresh and you jump ran a marathon.  Don't let them pick up your pace.

    3 - Track you HR.  If your HR goes up and your pace goes down - you are bonking.

    4 - If you run hilly 50's (most of the ones I have ran have at least 5k of climbing) walk the up and run the downs and flats.  Believe me, it works.  And a hill is anything you can't see overat the base of it.

    5 - Have I mentioned Gummy Bears?  :-)

    Have a GREAT run.

    John

     

  • Posted By Sue Chapman on 05 Sep 2012 08:51 PM

    Lauren - v. Cool that you're going for it! My plan for the 50 miler is to include salt stick - amount will depend on temps. Gels definitely and I like regular Gatorade the longer I run. Going to try some m&m's and pretzels this weekend. May also pack orange slices and a few pieces of cooked potato with salt in special needs bag on 50k trail (north face endurance challenge) run in 2 weeks. Saw the potato idea at Dances w Dirt a few years ago when volunteering. Not sure what else so will keep watching this thread for other ideas - thanks for posting the question.



    Love to know how you carried a salt stick?  I found the small Fuel Belt holder with a lid (it is a little smaller than the old 35mm film containers) worked well and easy to carry.  The Salt Stick just seemed to long.  But that is just me.

    Lemme know.

  • THANK you all so much for the advice. I am trying a variety of things on different long runs to experiment what sits well. I've found that since I'm running at a lower intensity I can actually handle solid food. I survived 24 miles today on some fig newtons and a snickers bar image Today was cool though-So with some gatorade and water with that I felt GREAT. But a few weeks ago I tried solids on a humid day and I really struggled with that. Went back to gus after 10 miles b.c solids were not sitting.

    I'm sure I'll have more questions as the runs get longer. Thanks!!!
  • @ Stark, good stuff thx
  • I am not running an ultra this year, but I am doing an event called the Seattle Quadzilla (4 marathon over 4 days) so the training is much like an ultra. Big mileage back to back on Saturday and Sunday then 10-12 mile runs on Tuesday and Thursday. I just surpassed 49 miles this week (first time ever) and so far liquid calories have been enough. None of my runs are faster than zone 1. Typically zone 1 + 30-60". My biggest concern right now is staying injury free.
  • Wished I lived in Seattle - that sounds awesome!
  • Hi Lauren - just an update - I did the 50K trail run this weekend and was good with a little solid food at each aid station - a few orange slices and a bite or two of potato. Had a few M&Ms several times. Mountain Dew a few times, a few Nutter Butters, and had three gels over the course of the event. Carried salt stick caps in a baggie and popped one at each aid station (about every 5-6 miles). It helps to have a bigger fuel belt - I have a Revenge Outdoor and can put 3-4 gels in it, salt stick, etc.
  • Thanks Sue- I was going to message you to see how the 50K went!!! I've been trying the solid foods early on during long runs and so far its working ok. Will that be your longest run before the 50? I am going to attempt 31 this weekend (doing a marathon with a friend, and doing a 5 mi run beforehand) and that will be my longest. Then next week I'll go shorter, the following week jump back to a 25miler, then taper down some for my race on the 27th of October. I am following that plan in Relentless Forward Progress (50 miles on 50 MPW).
  • Yes! Longest run before the 50 - fit right into the schedule - I think we're off by just one week - your 50 is a week later - although I'm trying to do the 70 MPW, knowing I won't get it all in - probably closer to 55-60. 25m in two weeks. Hardest part will be this week - tomorrow is supposed to be 6 - we'll see if the quads are going to cooperate - today was okay but spent yesterday going sideways down the stairs! I think I'd rather take is easy during this week and then get back into it this weekend. I do have to say ... really like the trail running - slower but time seems to go faster (relative for me). I was watching my garmin and when it hit 26.3 I was pretty stoked ... then just went back to focusing on getting to the next aid station! Here's the bonus - got a signed race bib and pic with Dean Karnazes!!! Let me know how the 31 goes!
  • Alright Sue-31 miles done today-1st (Unofficial) 50K image Ran 4.8 then 26.2 with afriend. I know how you felt now watching the Garmin after 26.2-I nearly cried when I saw it flip to 30 image Overall I felt pretty good. I went exceptionally slow due to running the marathon with a friend (as her 1st marathon) but I thought that was good to do to just get more time on my feet. My hamstrings are crazy tight right now-31 miles on the road will take its toll on the legs image Went with all gu throughout since that was on the course. I think for the 50 I am going to end up doing a combination of gu and real food-maybe more real food early on and switch to gu towards the second half. I'm a bit intimidated though-31 was a LONG run and I don't know I can phathom doing another 19!!
  • Whoot! How fantastic - it sounds like you had a great run and yes, it can get you when you realize ... OMG, this is farther than you've ever run - wasn't that fun! How do your legs feel today? I've been thinking the same thing - how am I going to add 19 more on top of that without collapsing by 40. Trying to lay out a strategy based on EN - stoopid slow to start, walk (quickly) all of the hills and try to plan what I want at the aid stations to not delay the forward movement. What was really nice was having everyone talking on the trail - good work, lots of relentless forward progress, keep it up, etc. which will help. I'm trying to envision feeling absolutely trashed and then really digging deep and making myself run a strong last 3 miles of my long runs. Hopefully that will help. This is the hardest week of the plan 14-8-10-rest-25-12 -- I keep telling myself to push through these! Going to use my car as an aid station on Saturday to take in solid food (potato and orange slices) at mile 12 to be sure all is okay. A big fat DNF is making me push through - I am not fast and we only have 11 hours to complete the run to officially finish (which is 13:12 minute miles).
  • Legs are feeling alright-a bit sore. I am going to attempt a 6 miler this afternoon in these new compression capris I bought-I'm hoping those will help with the soreness image I think that may help me envision what it will be like to keep running after 31-because my legs still feel pretty trashed! And due to scheduling I have to do 14 on Thursday instead of Saturday-should be interesting image

    My race has an 11 hour cut-off too...I normally wouldn't be too concerned with that, but thinking about adding in the walk breaks and however it will feel roughly 40 miles in is a bit concerning! I refuse to DNF-so for whatever reason if I'm going that slow I'll finish (even if it is unofficial!) In your race do you get anything for finishing sub-11? We get some cool belt buckle...that's incentive enough...If I get that I'm wearing it ALL the time. LOL
  •  Lauren, 

    Sorry that I am late to the party but have been off the grid for a time.  I have run the American River 50 in Nor Cal 5 times and have done lots of other ultras.  Most of my ultras have been on trails and no two trail runs are ever the same because of the topography.  I live in Southern California and some of the trail runs are brutal and others are pretty tame.  Like John Stark said power walk the uphills and run the flats and downhills.  On most of the trails that I run, I run in heavy trail shoes with a good sturdy toe box.  When your running downhill if you shoes are too small, the toenails can keep hitting the shoes resulting in the dreaded "black toe syndrome".  Loosing a toenail is never fun, so remember to cut your toenails the week before and vaseline or Body Glide parts that are going to rub.  I use Injinji toesocks and have never had a blister with them.  

    As far as nutrition, ultra marathon aid stations are old school.  They have a lot more solid food with cookies, candy, potatoe chips, pretzels etc along with some gels and sports drinks.  They usually have several types of soda pop ( Midwest term) and my favorite is Mountain Dew with sugar and caffeine.  Having worked for years at the Angeles Crest 100 aid stations at mile 80 & mile 90, you get to a point where your body will start to crave things.  By the time the runners reached us, most were on auto pilot but we had everything from soup, hot chocolate, hamburgers, hot dogs, along with the usual aid.

    If you are not going to have a pacer, hook up with another racer depending on how isolated the run will be because there is safety in numbers and misery loves company.  But always balance that with putting your interest first if they start to slow you down.  After 25 miles, just break in down into getting to mile 30, then 35, then 40 and so on.  You can run 5 miles right?  Just string together another 5 miles run.  No problem. Before you know it, you will cross the finish line.  Good Luck.

  • Jim-Thanks for the advice-You are not too late, still have about a month until the 50! I know Sue's 50 miler is a trail race, but mine is actually on the road. It seems like it will be a very, very boring course because it is set up as 4, 12.5 mile out and backs. I'm nervous for the mental game after mile 30-20 more seems like a LOT. I am actually going to have a friend meet me for the 3rd loop (so miles 25-37.5) and my husband for the 4th lap (miles 37.5-50) so I am hoping that will help. I'm nervous for nutrition as well-how many calories do you aim for during the run? Do you stick with the typical triathlon mindset of 250/hr? I noticed when I do that I still get so hungry later in the run. Also, the muscle cramping I've experienced gets almost unbearable at times-would you recommend upping my sodium intake? Thanks again for your advice!
  • Lauren, you might also think about changing shoes and socks because it is a loop course. In regards to ultras, it is mostly mental (as in most endurance sports). Just break the race into getting the current loop done and nothing more. Never focus on the enormity of the entire race. It will not be boring because after awhile your focus (or in EN terms "the box") will become smaller and smaller. Keep your box as big as you can for as long as you can. Remember there is no shame in power walking. Only the very top competitors will run most of an ultra. If your attitude really starts to tank, try some quick energy in the form of gels, candy etc. Attitude will be the key. Get your one thing in your head and cling to that and it will be an amazing feeling. After you finish your 50, there will be an entire reset of what long really is compared to your current "long".

    As far as cramping, there is really no definitive answer. Yes I would take some mineral/salt tablets but not overdue it unless you feel you need it. Follow the plan but not into a brick wall. A couple of tricks you may want to play with these last couple of weeks. Do some leg drills like squat walking/butt kicks etc to build up your strength but not too much as you don't want to go into your race overtrained. Try taking ginger/rolaids tablets which help settle your stomach in the case of an emergency. Diluted Coke helps some people also settle their stomach.
  • I was thinking about changing shoes-at mile 25-to trick my legs into thinking they are just starting a new run image The bottom of my feet have started bothering me on/after really long runs...maybe needing new shoes?
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