Swim Golf / Swim E Book Qs
Been plowing through the Swim E Book lately… I am definitely a fan.
After a few sessions and a progression workout (sans propulsion work), my golf score is consistently 81. This derives from 36/35 strokes (18/18 or 17/18) @ 45 seconds.
Have some questions for the fish in the Haus
Quick preface:
- Worked with an instructor last year on body position and catch.
- Catch is inconsistent at best but I feel it at times – lots of room to grow.
- Body position is the best thing I have going for me in the water… which is not saying a lot.
- Position was collapsing on weak side breathing.
- Few progressions of swim golf have decreased stroke rate and time on the weak side – yea RnP Swim E Book.
- Getting to a pool and focusing on form for 45-60 minutes is very convenient for me during the week. I can hit a pool 5 minutes away during lunch/before work and I get about 85 minutes for lunch. Of course – as long as it is the right ROI and not messing with the run/bike work scheduled).
Qs:
- Does anyone still use swim golf or the progression workout in the haus?
- A score of 81 @ 36 strokes and 45 seconds – what does that mean? Should I be closer to 40/40? (I do not use flip turns / it is in a 25yd pool / solid pace without pushing it but cannot relate it to 100yd repeat efforts – sorry not enough experience).
- How long do folks stick with Body position progression workouts prior to moving towards drills focusing on grabing more water? When do I graduate to grab water drills? Not rushing just want to know!
- What type of effort will it take to build a decent base of efficient muscle memory? (Specifically, frequency of workouts per week). I am very concerned about maintaining form over longer intervals 200+ yds. Swimming is a foreign sport to me. All I am concerned with right now is technique. Fitness is of little concern to me right now. IMWI 2013 is the goal.
- Are zoomers absolutely necessary? Would love to consider myself an equipment minimalist; however, during right/left arm lead drills I have very little propulsion and my hip flexors scream at the end of the 4x50s.
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Comments
For the past 1-1.5 years I've been using swim golf as a way of keeping score as I've been trying to re-build my swim stroke. Before the injury which imploded my swimming, I could do 50 yds (with a flip) @ 41s using 29-30 strokes. When I started the rehab project, I was at something like 85. I'm now back down to 42/29 for my best within the past 2-3 weeks. I do the SG "test" as two 50s at the end of a workout, and recently I've been hitting 42/31-2 routinely.
I read somewhere in Rich's swim instructions that a swim golf score of 80 is a demarcation between needing to work on form vs just smimming ("fitness training"). The only "form" work I did was to start using paddles - something I'd never done in 50+ years of swimming. I focused on two things: trying to think about my elbow to fingertips vertical to the pool bottom (obviously impossible, but that's the way I was trying to work on "elbow up, straight pull") Second, I worked on finishing my stroke as far back and as hard and fast as I can (while rotating) to rebuild my triceps muscles which had been impacted by the injury. The paddles are great for pointing out precisely where in the stroke I'm losing "feel" or firm grasp on the water
Al - thanks for the response as always.
I know the section where Rich calls out the line between fitness and form. I'm flirting with it.
At the end of a workout, I'm at 35/44; however I am improving and I have more room to improve.
I am working on maintaining form over increasing distances. Still at 200 yds tops.
So is the Rx to increase the distance I can sustain my form just to continue to drill technique at 2,000+ yds.
Right now I am following the ebook work out as close as I can:
10' wu
4xswim golf (3 x moderate / 1 x hard pull)
MS2:
8 (4x50s @ 15") form progression
100 easy
MS 2:
2-3 x 200 @ 15"
MS 3:
6 x 50 (25 hard pull x 25 easy) @ 20"
200 CD
The number 80 is the goal.
You stick with the body progressing part as long as you want for yourself 2 weeks or a month really no set number, if your golf score is about an 80 I'd suggest moving on.
The type of effort it will take to build a decent base of efficient muscle memory started on day one with training to swim as the book suggests, once again not really a set day or time doing the e book swims.
In my case I had plenty of time to follow the eBook and got a good hold on the drills. Moving on with my plan and the REST of the training. My form tends to fall apart so the muscle memory needs to take over because in the pool for so long I can only concentrate holding form for a bit then it's lets just get it done.
I'm a MOP guy at best not the swimmer I'd like to be but I didn't sign up for swimming I signed up for the full SBR.
The ROI in swimming I'd suggest isn't much for you to get faster as much as being more comfortable and confident in the water. That will allow you to be fresh for the B/R where you execution skills will crush it !
Zoomers or fins would be ok for the left right feel which you need because as you said you have very little propulsion and your hip flexors burn because your doing too much. Back off that drill maybe do a 50 then take the fins off do a 50 of something else then go back to the zoomers for the other 50 rinse and repeat.
yo Dave Walters, this is a great question:
. . . is the Rx to increase the distance I can sustain my form just to continue to drill technique at 2,000+ yds.
and this is one of the better answers for it.
http://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/...m_947.html
this is my favorite section related to swimming:
So, back to the question. Do you swim only what you can while holding good form? Or do you swim the proscribed yardage, even if your technique falters? Any triathlete, and any triathlon coach, and any single sport coach, has experienced these quandaries, and heard the accompanying questions from his or her disciples. The answer in practice is, you do everything. You swim with proper technique. And you swim the proscribed yardage, even if you can’t do it with proper technique. And you swim it as fast as you can while governed by your prescribed effort level. You do all this even if you can’t really do any of it perfectly. Eventually things work themselves out.
The way I might do it is to split my swim workout into several sets, where some of those sets are designed just for hard or buik yards, and others are geared toward working on the proper form to which I aspire.
good luck to you
Dave
Slow Twitch... not exactly a fan.
I do not feel comfortable with the Slow Twitch advice after reading that article. While I understand what Dan is saying, I feel his suggestion enforces the poor form that one is trying to eradicate through the "investments in time and concentration, not in sweat." Too much double talk for me. I feel it is like the principle of building fast THEN far on top of FAST. If you do both at the same time... you end up doing a poor job of both.
FWIW I've been following a kind of 3 wko approach: 1 wko - technique sets, 1 wko - short/mid interval sets @ TTish pace to build speed. 1 wko -- long sets @ race pace or OWS to build endurance. (This not always but usually in line with RNP's workouts in the plan) All the workouts run for 1 hr + and all have intervals in them, but the intensity and lengths change over the week. Guys like Swim Smooth have you do short technique sets in every workout but also follow the general pattern above. Of course this is in season where you should be doing it all, to build speed and endurance and maintain form. If you're outseason, take all the time you need to build proper technique, and then spend some time to stretch the technique out to last gradually. my 2 c
LOL, it’s ok. ST is not for everyone.
Dan's article is trying to bring some pragmatism to training, especially the swim portion. Many triathletes are new to swimming and they spend their entire workout doing drills. by doing that, they don't get the strength required to sustain their proper form for the period demanded by the race. what's the point of learning how to do it right if you don't have the fitness required to do it right for the distance required?
think about it: do you know many uber bikers who are ALWAYS doing drills? or runners who are forever doing high steps and fartleks? it has to be balanced. and that's where he calls for the "both" approach. focus on form where you can but don't obsess. get your yardage as well.
i read a piece a while ago (Rich perhaps?) that advocated doing 10 x 100: first 50 with "perfect" form, second 50 without a thought. i think that would work for a lot of people. me, i come from a swimming background. i do a few mindless yards to warm up (500-1000) and then i spend 250-500 thinking of technique (mental drills mostly). after that, i like to do 4 x 500 or 10 x 200 to get some workout time. the plan is that the muscle memory stored from the "drill" period carries forward into the "mileage" portion.
I think THAT is what you could take to your golfing. stick with what your doing. tweak your approach to get your score lower. get that efficiency down. once you have it (for that specific workout), bang out some yards and make it stick. then repeat, repeat, repeat. eventually, those late-workout yards will be of higher quality.
anyway, there's my $0.02. YMMV
Dave
Great points from everyone. A few more:
Drills, drills and drills. Then more drills. But before the drills and in between the drills, Swim Golf and real swimming. If you make like Dory and "just keep swimming," for the entire workout, you'd be surprised how much volume you can get into the typical workout.
Or have a couple days per week where you don't drill but you swim the fastest you can with the best stroke you can, taking as much rest as you need to do that again and again.
In other words, the way to become a faster swimmer is:
Worked on my stroke this morning using some ebook drills. Hey, I'll try anything to get my swimming on track. Swimgolf was helpful in tracking my progress and is built in to some of the workouts. My swimgolf score seemed to respond well to a lot of shoulder/body roll and waiting for my recovery arm to reach the archer position. This seemed to lengthen my stroke by keeping my stroke arm in the water for a longer arc while my shoulders are rolling over and my recovery arm is reaching forward. It was nice to have the golf score to compare to figure this out, otherwise I would have been in the dark. My big issue is that I can also decrease my golf score by using a stronger push off. I swim in a 25 yard pool and can cover a lot of distance with a good push off and stream line.