Determining your limiter , single sport focus , and when?
Assuming your limiter is the lowest ranking sport in your race results. I have reviewed the rank placement of swim, bike, run , in all my races. I have 4 years of data. The first couple years when the bike and run were so bad I was actually ranking highest in the swim. The last 2 years (with EN) on average the swim is the lowest rank, the run is the middle rank , and the bike ranks the highest. Throwing out the swim as a single sport focus based on ROI I would say the run should be my single sport focus of choice.
Is this the best way to determine your limiter? Or would it be best to use Vdot vs FTP vs w/kg?
After choosing the single sport to focus on.
What should the plan look like?
How long should it be?
Where and when should it be placed in terms of other plans pre season , before of after OS, in the middle of the IM plan???
Thanks Tim,
Comments
I don't know if the #s in your sig line are your current w/kg and VDOT... 4.5 compared to 50, I'd say at your age,the run is relatively weaker. BUT your ROI on running may be relatively low ... You may be butting up against your age driven limits for VDOT, and you may have opportunities for minutes improvement in swimming. "You can't win an IM with your swim,but you can lose it." Try swimming 50 miles in 50 days with me starting Oct 29. Race execution is very important in the run; swim specific strength and fitness is the key,,more so than execution,on race day. Your know how to race the run, your swim may offer a better opportunity for rapid improvement. You can do both running and swimming. A quick 6 week 5K directed training block, with a lot of short sharp interval sessions, will show you if your VDOT can be nudged up. Swimming 30-45 minutes 5 days a week during those six weeks is also possible, and may make a bigger difference. I can't remember your IM swim time,but if its less than 75-6 minutes, doing a mix of speed work and tempo work WILL make you faster. Meaning, 50-150s, each interval half hard, half easy with a lot of rest (20-30 sec), and 3/4/500s @ T pace or a little quick on the same rest (20-30) will work.
Off the bat I'd say the most important prerequisite to any introspective based improvement plan is to first clearly establish your goals. If you are aiming to qualify for a specific event, say Vegas or Kona, then of course you need to spend a healthy amount of time analyzing the competition and the types of performances that were able to earn qualifying spots at applicable events. For me, I first really need to establish what the total time deficit that is standing between me and qualification (or whatever my goal may be) and then develop a multi-faceted plan to fill that gap.
A big component of that plan of course will be identifying and ranking the areas where you can make the biggest improvement, i.e. your single sport focus, but ultimately as you have started to get towards the pointy end I'm sure you will discover that there is no single magic bullet, ultimately you need to have consistent quality results in all 3 sports as well as fast transitions and any other 'free speed' that comes along with efficient execution.
So I guess this is sort of a roundabout way of not discouraging going for the low-hanging fruit, but making sure that it is done in the context of the big picture of getting you to your goal.
I'm facing the same choice for my pre-OS timeframe.
In terms of measurement, I do it the way you do, coupled with a less precise but good "overall" method of looking at the guys around me in the standings (when ranked by overall finish time) and seeing generally how my bike and run compare. Because there is a LOT of variation in how balanced folks are across all 3 sports. Strangely my run tends to be my best sport in a race situation based on results analysis, but I think that's due a lot to execution and not pure run fitness. Also I've only ever done really hot races, and I'm convinced that the heat impacts me to less of a degree compared with others.
One thing to consider is that bike fitness translates very well to run fitness (whereas the converse isn't true at all). Also, the stronger you are on the bike, the better off you'll be getting off the bike and starting the run.
I get very,very tempted to drop into a Daniel's-type 10k program or hardcore half-marathon program because I see guys really ripping it up on the run and think that if I became a really strong runner "that could be me". But I look at guys who have come through EN and done stuff like that (for example Aleksandar Tasic) and they become really fast runners for a while, but then they go back to tri training and run the same as they always did...or worse, because they push too hard. Of course there are counter-examples like Matt Ancona who did run-only for a while and became a kick-ass runner for the long term. But also his FTP is gigantic...
I think what I'm going to do is focus on running until Thanksgiving or so, but make sure to bike 2x/week so my FTP starting point for the OS is not materially diminished from where it is today. That way in the OS I can continue to make FTP gains (hopefully!), which benefits both the run and the bike.
In terms of a plan, personally I think the hardcore way to do it is via a Daniel's plan. But since it's the post-season I'm just not mentally able to go that hard. Some of those workouts are just nuts, like 6x1mile at TP with 1-minute recoveries. I can't do that right now. My simplistic and totally homemade run plan is as follows:
- Run 4-5x per week
- Two FTP runs, one which is a 45 min tempo run, and the other which is 60' with 4x mile repeats at z4 with 4' recoveries, then the last 10' run on the fast side of z3
- One run with z5 (IP/RP) intervals, for example 6x2'(2'), 35-45 min total
- One long run, 60'-90'...but no major intervals or structure...this one is just a bit harder than "I could run this pace all day long"
Edit / follow-up comment: if my running looks really FTP-focused that's because it is. I'm not a great 5k runner but for long-course triathlon I think VDOT based on something less than a 10k really isn't a good yardstick. I think you need to train to be a fast half-marathon runner. Not that track workouts and z5 intervals aren't part of that, but I do think that LT for running distances above 10k is critical. As I said, I'd follow a Daniel's plan if I was REALLY serious about running at this time of the year, and he does plenty of track work...
I have to add, I know that I still have improvements to make on the run and bike (and nutrition), but in my head....
My last 3 IM rankings in AG for SBR were 45/20/27 , 41/37/53 , 59/24/37 clearly swim worst and bike best.
@Trevor- My goal is to KQ. My focus is on the IM distance. My best guess is I need to find at least another 20 minutes and then be at the right place at the right time and have the race of my life. I have found that it does no good to look at previous years or other AG because they vary and usually just keep getting faster. Obviously looking to get faster across the board but thought about a single sport focus on my weakest link (exception swimming).
@ Al - My current w/kg is 4.1 vs vdot of 50.5. I worked my butt off last year and was only able to move my FTP from 223 to 230. In the same time frame I was able to move vdot from 49 to 50.5. At this point I'm feeling my vdot maybe just a tad higher and I am getting the opportunity to test it on sunday with a HM but I feel I can nudge it up just a tad from here. I'm scared just thinking about trying to move FTP up from here. Maybe a single sport focus on bike I could do it but not while running. The swim I work on pretty hard all year and last 2 IM's just under 1:06. Never in a million years would I think that a 1:06 would be my worst ranking. I'm up for the 50 miles in 50 days though!
@Matt- So even though your run is your best rank , your going to focus on the run? I've heard that bike fitness helps the run but not the opposite and feel its true. Bottomline keeps going back to the bike just because its the longest. I tend to rank better in the heat as well, with 2010 IMLOU run ranking the highest just because I didnt walk. I like your theory of FTP running for longcourse and my last tested vdot of 50.5 was confirmed at 3.1 and 13.1 distances. Maybe I just gotta accept the fact that the gains will be smaller and harder to find. Good luck with your run focus interested to see how it works out.
@ Keith - Cyclecross looks awesome but I'm a freeze baby and the time of year just doesnt appeal to me. Good luck with that trainer road focus and have fun. Let us know your gains.
Most people believe it should be placed just prior to OS?
I kinda screwed myself with a late IMCZ on 11/25 and an early IMTX on 5/18 , not leaving much time inbetween for a full OS. After a couple weeks rest , I was considering a single sport focus of a couple weeks just prior to a shortened OS and before a 12 week IM build.
I guess it doesnt really matter what your limiter is . The question should be where can I get the most time and that might be the strongest sport?
Is anyone considering a Get Faster Plan in place of OS?
Great thread everyone. Here is my $.02. I believe that consistency in workouts over time and avoiding injury is a key to getting faster, especially for the +50 AG. I was a runner for years before I got into triathlon, and I always ran my best races when I had a long period of solid training, not interupted by injury. I don't know that my VDOT increased or not (I didn't know what a VDOT is back then) but i ran faster race times when I avoided injury. When I did get injured, the time to heal always set me back and I had to work patiently to regain my fitness, hoping to not get injured again. In fact, I got into tris because of a running injury and wanted something to do while I healed.
One of the beautiful things about tris is the benefit of the cross training in 3 disciplines. It is like a built in recovery and injury avoidance mechanism, IMO.
A single sport focus could really improve ones performance in the segment, but to me, it comes with increased risk of injury. This is especially true for a running focus - playing with too many intervals or too much mileage is asking for injury (or maybe that is just for me since I'm 57 and know that my legs can't handle the run stress I use to put them thru). I think a person has less injury risk with a swim or bike focus. So that is what I do (bike focus) and save my major running effort for the build up to races.
Net for me consistency in all three areas is key to improvement, and I train in all 3 year round. I just vary the mileage and intensity by time of year (OS or IM race build). And I do think you can get faster as we age IF you avoid injury. I just had a 52' PR at IMWI.
I didn't run a step until age 50. I plateaued after 5 years of training, and kept my speeds at all distances pretty constant from 55-61. I am only now @ 63.5 starting to see a very small drop off in performance. I think this pattern may actually apply at any age if one takes up running after, say age 37-40.
Last tested my HM and 5K vdot were the same and it does relate to my predicted IM marathon times. I have a theory that I have discussed with Paul Devasish (very nice EN friendly guy from ST similar size to me) and he agree's that a smaller person can hold a higher percentage of there bike FTP for an IM than a larger person. I dont see any reason why this wouldnt be the same for the run. In other words being able to hold a pace prediction from your 5k vdot for an IM should be easier for a smaller person. It has to do with heat generated and surface area among other things.
For now stay with IM plan into IMCZ.
My plan after IMCZ.
2 weeks off bike and run (zero bike or run)...This should allow me to finish the 50mile swim in 50days with Al . Should work out well since I was gonna pick up swim volume anyway leading into IMCZ and I can focus on swim for a few weeks after during recovery and bike/run down time.
2 weeks unstructured bike/run starting slow after the 2 week reset and building up to get ready for OS.
8 weeks OS I realize this is short but I will be mentally ready to hit all workouts full on with maximum recovery practices. This is why I was considering the 8 week Get Fast Plan.
1 week recovery/transition from OS
12 week IM plan to IMTX.
@ All in discussion about Age related improvements. I started at age 46 and am now 50. I figure I still have a few more years of improvement before the inevitable plateau. I have friend who is 65 and has been doing this for 7 years now and is still setting PR's and on his way to KONA after a 12:16 AG win at IMMT. He has a swim background so that has stalled and even got a little slower recently but his bike and run continue to improve .....I think if he took it more seriously earlier on (or joined EN) he would have plateaued by now.
Continued suggestions on plan and or original discussion is very welcome!
Swim ROI is not as high others, and it's not a good investment decision if you can still make your bike 1 hour faster. But if you're hunting for every minute, then a dedicated month or two of lots of time in the pool with good coaching/masters can make a huge difference.
Train as hard as you can recover from, and not an ounce harder. Getting wound up over what the right way to measure Vdot is and whether you're "leaving something on the table" is a surefire way to convince yourself to work harder, which may or may not be a good thing. Just need to remember to ask yourself if you can actually absorb the hard work you're holding yourself to.
Look at the Coggan tables of training dose/response. Running/biking in Z3 still does a lot to push up your threshold. Let's not think that slightly undercooking a workout is "throwing away the benefit". Several folks in da haus have committed themselves to doing every threshold workout at no higher than .95 and seen great results. Food for thought.
I started a 50 miles in 50 days challenge last Nov/Dec after I did IM AZ, in an effort to make continued improvement in my swim after it had been devastated in an accident the year earlier. My IM swim times were 70 min ...accident... 85 min, swim challenge, 76 min, 73 min. So I think it helped some.
I didn't succeed in doing 50 miles in 7 weeks (49 days), but it it useful to keep me pushing 4-6 times a week in the winter. The focus was disance, not speed or technique. Since I've been swimming for 50+ years, and I bascially lost the ability to sprint, I had no choice but to "throw volume" at the problem.
After I get back from Hawaii, I'l post it in the challenge forum, but it's not officialy in the sense that it has a specifc start date or anything. It's just a catchy name for a swim focus.
That pretty much says it, and is I assume not a surprise to Tim after the experience of a small time improvement leading to MASSIVE rankings improvement comparing IMFL and IMMT. It makes me wonder why if KQ is the goal that you picked CZ and TX for your next two races. Focusing on getting to 4.5w/kg then showing up at IMWI might be the right strategy.
Personally after reading your race reports over the past year I don't think you have much low-hanging fruit in execution...I have always been struck by how you seemed to turn in a performance that was pretty close to the max that your fitness would suggest.
As I reflect on Mike's comments I do think those resonate well. You're well into the territory of serious work for what seems like small gains...but scrapping for those little gains is what will get you where you want to go. So the idea of some serious swim coaching and seeing what their is to harvest there is not bad...I think in your position the "ROI" equation is not the same as for the average folks.
Great conversation! A few notes:
Race Selection:
I dig IMWI because it's a challenging bike course...more so because it's so challenging to figure out vs tons of gain. That is, going fast on the course is equal parts high w/kg and high IQ
. There there is nothing on the run that's too hard (for example, last 3mi of each lap of IMLP).
PnI have made Bike and Run Focused plans, you should see them in the training plan menu early next week. For the bike focused plans I:
P can talk about what he did for the Run Focused plans...and we should probably start a dedicated thread on this topic. But as you may recall, a major component of our creating the Master Season Plans and dropping the OS was so that we could create the opportunit to do a single-sport focus like this.