TP runs easier, but VDOT stays the same?
I've been using a VDOT of 47 for my run paces, based on results from a half marathon back in February. The GF plan over the past 8 weeks was the only real significant speed work I've done since then - there were a few workouts here and there were I'd run a few miles around the 7:00 to 7:20 pace, but for the most part all speedwork was relegated to the past 8 weeks. Over the past 3-4 weeks, I've felt like the threshold pace runs were getting easier - easier to maintain pace, faster recovery, and I had been finding that my easy pace and corresponding HR was dropping closer to the 8:10-8:20 min/mile pace as opposed to the ~8:50 that the VDOT of 47 prescribes. In the past, I've found that to be a good indicator that my VDOT has changed.
However, today I just completed a VDOT test, finishing with an average pace of ~6:45 min/mile - and my VDOT remains at 47. I know that RPE metrics are not considered to be very reliable, but I feel like considering the conditions (cool outside, solid rest the night before, well rested from a week of fewer workouts), and the fact those RPE metric improvements have been stable over the past few weeks, that it would count for something - but the VDOT results say otherwise.
Is this fairly common? And do people typically just forge ahead with what the VDOT says, or might people sometimes bump up the VDOT by one, to account for the fact that the original VDOT was based on a race, the new one is not, and the improvement in RPE?
Comments
My thoughts/comments would be that you a.) shouldn't be surprised...and b.) shouldn't be disappointed
a.)I haven't been into the Get Faster plans and don't know what they consist of so would ask - have you been running alot of fast stuff/intervals- ie. 5k pace and faster?.... if not I don't think you should be surprised that your v-dot hasn't changed becuase your v-dot was set on your Half Marathon pace which- IMHO- is probably not a good extrapolation backwards to your true vdot/top end speed measure...and unless you have been running fast stuff- ie. 5k/ faster than 6:45...your ability to run faster than 6:45 is not gonna change...but you will feel more comfortable running at 6:45-7:00 pace as you noted....
b.) don't think you should be disappointed that your v-dot hasn't changed because the positive marker of improved fitness are there...ie. RPE and HR both reflecting that it is easier for you to run at faster pace...........
....and then sometimes...its just not a great test....either way...you seem to be doing well.
BTW have you tested previoulsy? or is the only measure you have your February pace and extrapolated vdot? if so...the next test is more important as the 5k TT is a much better measure and what you should compare against going forward.
Since when does EN guidance suggest that a lot of 5k pace (our Z5) is necessary to get faster at the 5k distance? Pretty sure most of the plans focus on Z4 work most of the time, which is closer to 10-15k pace, with a sprinkle of 5k pace built in.
Multiple times I've heard this notion that training a little lighter might be 'undercooking' the workout, and therefore you don't get the benefits that were intended. That you've gotta train at the 'right' Vdot or FTP. Baloney, training doesn't work that way. There is no magic sauce where training at a 6:46 makes your 5k time faster, but training at a 6:56 doesn't. That's not how physiology works. Get the best SWAG of your Vdot or FTP you can get, then do the work. If you want a look at the effects of training at different levels, look at Table 2 here
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-training-levels,-by-andrew-coggan.aspx
Training lower than Z4 in a threshold workout, for example, doesn't mean you don't get effects on increasing Mitochondrial enzymes, increasing lactate threshold, and increasing plasma volume, it's just slightly less than if you'd been doing it harder. Training lower than Z5 in a Z5 workout doesn't mean you don't get the effect of raising VO2peak or stroke volume, again just slightly less. It's not accurate to suggest that just because someone has potentially underestimated their Vdot from a longer test (which we don't know here, remember Matt Ancona routinely tests higher at longer distances), that they wouldn't get faster from doing work at those zones.
-end my question, back to the OP-
Ryan, you probably had a slightly sub-par test, which is not uncommon for many people outside of a race setting. If your workouts are all trending better (ie. lower HR at the same pace, and lower RPE), then you're getting faster. Yes, you can probably bump up the training zones by 1 Vdot point and see how it feels for a couple of weeks. Always reasonable to train at the highest Vdot you can justify, and then back off if you feel like it's too much.
The GF plans are mostly threshold workouts for the run - a couple 5k race pace workouts, but most speedwork is threshold. To answer the question, no I didn't do any real training at anything sub threshold pace. When I was doing the TP runs, I set my garmin to alert when outside the range of 7:05-7:20, with the target being 7:12. I found that that +/- range worked real well to allow for slight slowdowns when going uphill, or slight pace increases when going downhill, while still keeping the Garmin from beeping incessantly.
I've also wondered how the VDOT really correlates with itself in terms of different distances. Prior to this test, most of my VDOT's have come from half marathons - so that was at least a fairly apples to apples comparison. Whereas obviously in this case I'm comparing a half marathon to a 5k, and I'd imagine that at the shorter distance, you have other rate limiting factors when it comes to your bodies ability to produce the muscle exertion required to maintain the faster pace.
Mike - it's funny you cite that article. I've used the same article when trying to show others (prior to joining EN) that high mileage of low intensity runs are not a time effective way to get faster
I think you are both right - probably just not a worthy comparison in the end. There's no doubt I feel stronger and faster now than I did 8 weeks ago (faster being defined, in this case, as the ability to maintain a higher pace for longer - even if the top end pace isn't necessarily faster), and that a run @ a 7:15 pace is not going to result in quad tightening and ultimately ITBS issues like it has in the past. But if the VDOT doesn't show it, so be it.
Thanks for the great responses!
(man it's nice to be in a place where forum responses are intelligent!)
I don't think I have anything substantive to add, just an observation. Speed (VDOT) and Fitness (RPE) are two different things. Bear in mind that our training is directed towards being able to use whatever speed we have, as demonstrated over "short" distances. to the best effect in a much longer effort (5-12 hours + in an HIM or IM). Its not surprising that the result of training will be a feeling that things seem easier at the same speed. As I approach my A race, I feel a great boost of confidence in how "easy" my swim 100's, Bike FTP intervals, and mile intervals on the track feel compared to 3 months ago, even though I am going no faster. And, my second RR was both faster and felt easier than RR#1. So the training had its effect, and I will be able to actualy "enjoy" race day.
Go race something, like an Oly or a HM; might as well take advantage of your improved fitness.
Just to clarify Mike's excellent point, this is the part of Joseph's reply that he's commenting on. And Mike is right in that you dont HAVE TO be running at your exact 5k pace to be able to run faster than your last tested 5k pace. When we say "Fitness is in the Muscles" and "Work Is Speed Entering The Body" we aren't saying that you need to be working at that high level to be able to improve upon that high level.
As the OP noted, he is seeing fitness gains in the "lower end" of his running zones, but not the top end. That's _still_ a gain, even if it's not a vDOT improvement. From the perspective of what you are training for (HIM, IM, etc) it's probably a more important gain to make, i.e. the consolidation of your lower end fitness.
But that's not Mike's point as I see it. His point is this: a test is a test, and that's your vDOT. You don't enter a test "expecting" to "win" or "ace" it ONLY if you have been running faster across the board. If you test faster, your vDOT goes up...if you don't it doesn't. If you are running faster in training but not seeing that in a test (you are a bad tester), then you can try adjusting your vDOT up a bit to see if you can hold it.
But if you aren't training at a hight number doesn't mean your training is a waste; some of my biggest gains have come from excelling in alternate areas than threshold level work!
[hope this helps...seems like I didn't do a great job of clarifying]
Keep up the work; it will come. You're clearly making progress even if it isn't exactly what you expected!