long run pace in IM?

Julie Pfeifle

 I've got 7 more weeks til IM Arizona and just this week did the first "IM simulation long run" of starting 30" slower per mile, then rest of run at LRP, walking 30 steps each mile.  My question is the LRP seems soooo slow, and am wondering if this is our recommended IM run pace?  Mine is 9:59 (but it's been a while since my last VDOT test... oops!!)  I just did a 1/2 IM with an 8:40 pace.  How much slower than the 1/2 IM should I expect my full IM run to be?  Should I get out and do a new VDOT test stat??  Any advice greatly appreciated!!

Coach Patrick

@Julie, yes history and 1,000+ racers have shown that LRP is a good indicator of final IM performance on the run. That said, it's dependent on whether or not your vDOT is actually right! These runs should feel pretty easy...you can get away with running a bit faster in training (9:30s)? But usually our training focus here is such that (A) you DOMINATE your other workouts now the long run isn't killing your weekly progression and (B) you learn what it means to run at that easy pace as most mess that up on race day.

So find a space you can run after a day off and do a new test...maybe monday off, Tuesday 5k, then back into your regular week?

mgraffeo

Julie, a well executed HIM run of 8:40 pace would translate to a Vdot of about 40.5, which would then mean a LRP of 10:04. Sounds like you're performing right on schedule. Yes, it will feel excruciating to go "so slow" in the beginning of the race, but get to mile 18 feeling that way, and then you've got 8 miles to pick up the pace and run down people still in front of you.

Testing again doesn't hurt, but may not be necessary.

Al Truscott

"excruciating" works for Mike - my mantra in the first 30-45 minutes of an IM run is "stupid slow". It should feel (on race day) EASIER than LRP during a training run now. Try to ingrain that feeling during your long runs; don't worry so much about your actual pace (it may be faster than LRP + 30 sec), but about whether it feels too slow. If it does, you're doing it right.

Julie Pfeifle

still thinking about this... I did re-test; it was awful - 2 days after a century; thought I would be okay. I was wrong; walked a couple times due to lack of mojo and GI issues. If I look at my pace during the running intervals, it's the same VDOT.

But... that 10:00 (and 10:30) for the first couple miles is almost unbearable! Just curious... for those of you who feel like you've executed the IM run well, what was your pace, compared to your 1/2 IM pace?

Thanks all!

dotcatlin

There are 5 zones. Z1 is your easy pace, but it also should be your IM pace-good luck with that
Zone 2 is your stand-alone marathon pace (have you done that?), and also your HIM pace (Have you done that?)
I personally can kill a 5k, but I cannot meet my Z2 for a HIM (about 20 secs off per mile) or my Z1 for an IM after the swim & bike portion (about 1' off per min avg).
Sounds crazy--I make all my zones in training, no problem, but come race day there is fatigue. I did IMFL at 11' pace, LP at 11:30. This is why PnR say that a 10' mile avg is actually really good for an IM. I know! It sounds insane! But, IM runs are slow! I aim for my IM runs to be about 45 mins slower than my stand-alone marathon time. It just seems like that has worked for me. With that said we have some absolute superstars on this site, who really can hold their Z1 pace for the IM. They are friggin' amazing!!!! I just keep saying to myself, Go Hard or Go Home (ya know, with keeping the strategy in mind too). But, just give it your all on race day-do what you can do and have a little fun too!

Michele Cellai

Julie- I am the same VDOT. I no longer test because despite doing every get fast work out and even feeling like I am flying during a test, it NEVER CHANGES. It is probably biomechanical. As long as I am not getting slower or injured, I have accepted it.

As for the long runs- yes it can be excruciating to do LRP +30" in practice, and I don't. I shoot for somewhere in between LRP and LRP+30" for the first 6 miles, then go for a negative split. Today I did the first 6 miles in 62', so I averaged LRP +20", then for the next hour I picked it up and averaged LRP minus 15-20". I consider it my reward for slow pacing the first half. I used to practice the walking, but I no longer feel the need. It just comes naturally during the IM as I can't drink from a cup as I run. And like Dottie, I have never come close to LRP for any extended period during the IM run. IMWI averaged 11' miles, started at 11:30-11:45 and ended at 10:30's, Vineman average 11:20- but except for walking the aid stations, I ran every step. If I could figure out how to drink from a cup without pouring half of it on myself, I could probably run the entire thing.

My HalfMary pace is 8:35. I can only hold it if I have trained exclusively for a HalfMary race, but just barely. In a 1/2 IM, I can usually average LRP, but not faster.

Peter Greagg

The EN long course run execution guidelines has a bit more detail than is being discussed here.

FWIW, for an IM, the range of paces span 75% to 80% of your TP. For a Vdot of 40, EP is 10:10 per mile whereas 80% of TP is 10:17 and 75% of TP is 10:58.

For a HIM, the range of paces span 88% of TP to 93% of TP. For a Vdot of 40, MP is 8:45, whereas 93% of TP is 8:49 and 88% of TP is 9:19.

So in summary, while we like to think the run in an IM is at EP, in all likelyhood it will be slower than that. Similarly for a HIM, we like to think the run is at MP, in all likelyhood it will be slower than that.

In my own case, I target the MP when training for a HIM (and EP for IM) but in race execution, I aim for the lower end of the range and try and kick it home at the end of the run.

I assume part of it is we use our 5 km Vdot for training but when racing long course, the distances are half mary or full mary. Also, the EN advice about half/full mary pacing is to take your 5 km Vdot and subtract 2 points and then use that revised Vdot to calculate your pace. The reason we do this is that, in general we don't fully prepare for distance running as we have three sport to train for rather than one.

That said, there are some peeps in da haus that have a higher Vdot at a half mary compared to their 5 km Vdot.

Juan Vergara

I'm not sure how to handle hills (up & down) during the race?
What is the equivalent (is there?) to "flatening the course" (ie. bike pacing) on the run?
Kindly advice!!!!
Tks
Juan

Carl

Juan-
I like to shorten up my stride and take more steps up the hill. I often count and try to take 90-95 steps a minute. On the way down I let my body dictate. It always hurts more going down. P;

Al Truscott

@ Juan - You can use HR, but its response lags somewhat, more so than wattage changes on the bike. My advice is to use your run training sessions to lock in your sense of perceived exertion (RPE) at any given effort level/pace. Then, when starting up a hill, try to keep the RPE at the same level, by, as noted, shortening your stride (not slowing your cadence). For longer hills, you can use HR as a guide as well, but only after about 20 seconds or so. Going back down, lengthen the stride, and lean forward a bit (to avoid slamming on the brakes with each step).But the key is to develop a finely tuned internal sense of just what it feels like on the flats to run @ your LRP, and don't go above that feeling when going uphill on race day. Going downhill, its surprising how much faster you can go than others simply by being willing to "let yourself run" at your LRP downhill. As on the bike, most folks seem to be trying to rest a bit on downhills; actually, they are just hurting their legs by trying to go slower than they could

This also works well for altered environmental conditions such as hot days, or higher altitude.