Relationship between overtraining and Z3 work
Very interesting comments by Phil Skiba here
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=4197174#4197174
Thoughts?
0
Very interesting comments by Phil Skiba here
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=4197174#4197174
Thoughts?
Comments
http://www.triathlontrainingblog.com/post/the-grey-zone/
I normally take anything I read from a blog with several grains of salt, but it seemed to jive with a lot of what Daniels mentions in his book regarding training paces. Up until the point where I read about this stuff, I admit most of my training was in such a zone, and I found the quote "People generally settle on a pace because they feel it gives them a 'good workout'" to be very true. That sounds like a short version of what Phil said: "My opinion is that since this sort of riding is easy enough that you can do it for several hours, but hard enough to severely tax glycogen storage, it represents a potential risk. The athlete can end up in a monotonic cycle of constantly doing this sort of work and eventually, they fry."
So, I think there's something to it, only because I've seen the benefits of the idea that hard workouts are supposed to be hard (Z4), easy workouts are supposed to be stupid easy (Z1 or Z2). Sure, EN plans tend to have a good amount of Z3 stuff, but they tend to be relegated to MS2 or MS3 work, as opposed to MS1. At least, in my limited exposure to the EN plans so far.
I moved back into the basement a few weeks ago for just this reason. As my IMFL build was intensifying, I was plateauing out on the roads and I think one contributing factor was that the harder intervals were meshed with not enough recovery time due to the rolling terrain and my lack of discipline. Riding ez/steady up some hills, even trying to back off, was keeping me in z3ish land. In the cave, I seem to be better at going hard when ordered and, also, getting the proper recovery time in when on the trainer.
Not saying that I'm only in The Cave. Just for the Key Workouts. Seems to be helping.
To answer the question of the title of this thread. I did a "sweet spot" 2:37 ABP ride yesterday at IF .85 and was absolutely fried. Obviously it depends on how often and how long you spend there but I could definitely over train in that zone.
To answer the OP's question of where should he be spending most of his time? I think mostly vo2 and threshold early then lean more towards tempo closer to race day. Sound familiar?
My take away observation's.
1. Important to train in variable zones tempo,threshold, vo2. EN covers this completely. Where , when, and how much of each zone is theory for the most part and up for discussion. I tend to lean towards doing most of the vo2 and threshold work in the OS or early season , then backing off as we add the far onto the fast.
2. The discussion over far then fast vs. fast then far is still alive and well. Although it does appear more people are adopting the EN way of fast then far.
3. Sustainable Power--I think this was the most interesting and important for the IM distance. I often noticed that I felt more fatiqued from a steady 4hr .75 ride than I did after a 4hr .80 ride with intervals. I have read alot of IM RR's where the IF was alot lower than targeted and I cant help but thinking the athlete was not prepared for the distance. As I approach my IM I changed my long rides to steady IM race pace intensity (keeping the ABP and shorter interval day the same). This seems to work and certainly gives me the confidence of sustaining my goal race pace power. Very similar to the EN longruns this year vs last year being more about practicing race pace vs speedwork. HIM distance doesnt seem as important because the ABP rides keep you ready for a HIM.
4. How this all applies to overtraining and recovery again is up for discussion. I know there is a whole other thread about recovery. I can honestly say I have never done more intervals or harder intervals than any of the EN written workouts and quite often done less. When I'm not feeling it , its loud and clear and I have no problem either backing off the intesity 5-10% , shortening up the intervals , the total time , or taking a day off. I also do less in the taper specially the last week.
5. In light of this thread and discussion what am I going to change going forward? I am going to do the EN OS as written. I will change my vo2 ON/OFF time to longer intervals trying to get them up to 2-3 min even if I have to back off from 120%. In the past I would focus on the necessity of hitting 120% and they would end up being 1min on/off. While doing FTP work allow myself to do some of the intervals at the lower end of the range (same with the .80-.85 and .70-.75). Keep the long ride as a steady race pace as I near my IM and eliminate any vo2 work during the IM build.
@ Mike-- very interested in your thoughts on that thread and how it relates to our current layout of OS plan zones and then into IM plan zones.
I read the thread but truthfully didn't digest all of it fully. I honestly believe (a) that the "optimal" regimen will differ for different individuals, (b) you can get great results from all the z4 work that we do, because it really does jack your FTP, (c) I think long rides at z3 are super for building endurance, and for SURE are higher ROI for the majority of us compared with really, really, REALLY long rides at low intensity, and (d) I don't think it's easy to overtrain on the bike, even with a lot of z3/85% stuff.
Point (d) is I think the "controversial" thing here, because the EN way does a ton of z3 work. In the half-iron plans a Saturday 3-hour ride will have you doing the first hour with a bunch of z4 intervals, the next hour a bunch of z3 and the last hour more easy. Then the next day 2 hours at z3. Unlike Tim, when I do these workouts I generally do even more z3, and in a 3-hour ride it isn't uncommon for me to do all the z4 intervals then instead of 3x20' @z3 followed by easy riding, I'll do 4x30' @z3 or 3x20' then 10' easy then "best effort" to the end of the ride...which is usually a high z3 or maybe even 90%. I also typically try hard to hit my z4 at 100% vs. 95%. This works for me. But I think different people react differently to the vaious approaches. In particular for folks who are older (i.e. Tim...who is not "old" but rather "older than me"!!!) I could see the fatigue of high intensity work playing a bigger role than it does for me (I am 37). Given the ROI equation of most of us in EN, and given that the absolute volume we do is not incredibly high (esp for those who are younger), I think the approach that includes a lot of z3 is pretty effective.
[In particular for folks who are older (i.e. Tim...who is not "old" but rather "older than me"!!!) I could see the fatigue of high intensity work playing a bigger role than it does for me (I am 37)]
Another thought on the .85 ABP ride---- On the IM plan they are written for Sunday the day after long bke , for 180 min trying to accumulate 90-180min @.8-.85. I usually try for 2.5-3 hours .80-85 continuous and they do take there toll. I have been experimenting on moving this ABP ride around in the schedule to allow some recovery from the Saturday ride.
In the last month I have moved it twice to Monday, 2 days after the Saturday long ride with a tempo run squeezed in on Sunday. My experience has been they are not any easier and infact feel more difficult I would rate both of those ABP rides low on the scale of quality.
I have also moved it twice Tuesdays following a Sunday Race , and a day off on Monday. One Sunday Race was a OLY and the other was a HM both of these races were 100% of my ability all out races and yet the ABP ride 2 days later turned out to be my best ABP rides of the year!
All I can think of is a 4-5hr .75 ride 2 days before a 2.5-3hr ABP ride appears to leave more fatigue than a much higher but much shorter intensity Race as the OLY or HM.
I do think that this has impacted my FTP, Vo2 max, anaerobic power though. I'm definitely noticing a lack of that high end gear since i started cyclocross racing a few weeks ago. Short (and I mean really short) intense efforts just instantaneously cook me. I've just switched back to shorter overall bikes on the trainer and I'm building backinto the FTP/Vo2 stuff right now.....so in some way I'm looking at it as a form of periodization (if that's the correct term). In this I'm adding in more FTP and Vo2 work, but with longer overall recoveries between sets. It's my own experiment during my bike focus before the OS in January.
* how much time you have to train.
* your ability to process the work of your training.
* your discipline to follow a set plan vs deviating too much.
* your current fitness limiters in relation to your event.
* your actual goals for that event.
* what you enjoy doing with your training time.
Long and slow, short and hard, medium and pretty hard..they all have places in a season and will serve you well...but there is no "one" right way. My current journey has me on a path to Kona with 2 x Interval bike of 75' and one longer aerobic session of about 5 hours. Just put up lifetime best 5' power (for training, not a race) and am looking for a new 20' personal best as part of my taper...just another step on the journey of finding peak fitness!!
The OS that I really nailed the MS and did all the Z3 bonus time on the bike, I saw my biggest gains for two months straight, and then the wheels came off. I never felt off, but I just couldn't hit the numbers I was hitting, and it progressively got worse. Took 3+ weeks of focus on rest and recovery before I was able to start training again.
The race season I routinely nailed every workout (HIM focus), I got to the race, had a terrific day, and literally couldn't get myself out of bed for an AM workout for 3 weeks afterwards. After that, training for the 2nd HIM of the season became more surviving and just doing enough to be confident I could finish. Second race was over 20 minutes slower than the first.
A few things were common to both situations:
1) Lots of Z4 work and Z3 work in the plans
2) No real signs of excessive fatigue until it was 'too late'
3) my mentality of push-push-push, with no letting up
In the OS where I blew myself up, I was in the middle of moving to a VO2 focus as things were going backwards, so at that time, the VO2 work wasn't really the trigger, just bad timing.
My suspicion is that, personally for me, I need to build up my Z3 time with a careful eye, because it doesn't seem to make me tired like my Z4 work does. So I can push myself through a lot of it and not realize how much recovery I need as a result. Phil's post just felt so familiar to me.
I've said it before, but frankly, I'm just plain dumb on the bike. Don't know when I'm pushing too hard, don't know when I'm about to crack, totally un-self-aware. Don't know what I'd do without a PM. This thought process on the Z3 work to me helps to refine my views on how much of it to do.
Lifestyle, IMHO, is a much bigger factor. I'm 35 with two kids, soccer games, business travel, and a crappy diet, so I'm not going to be able to absorb as much work as someone who's 55, two kids in college, semi-retired, and eats well. Unfortunately, the only variable I can do anything about in that sentence is the crappy diet, and I seem to have some issues between the ears on that front... :-p
From your lips to Gods ear .... awesome Mike and have a twinkie on me