Recovery threshold for long runs?

Gene

I seem to require an extreme recovery cost if my long runs go in excess of 130 minutes or 15 miles. Is there some magic to this? Obviously the longer the run, the more abuse that occurs, but the required recovery is not keeping pace with the extra run time.

I am currently building for IMFL and I have had pretty drastic recovery costs if my long Thursday runs extend past 130 minutes. But the recovery costs do not seem to be linear to the extra time. The runs I am referring to are all within the last phases of the IM 12 week build. I am executing them at the LRP (8:32/mile for me) and adding a simulated aid station/short walking break at each mile. For each of my long runs I am hydrating the same, and using the same nutrition. During the workouts I have mini-peaks and valleys, they are long and do hurt. I would say they all go well enough, I'm not associating them to anything similar to a bonk. It is just the post run recovery that takes forever if the run exceeds 130 minutes.

For example:

On 10/4 I ran 120 minutes/13.5 miles and it hurt but I felt strong throughout. Then the next day on 10/5 my legs feel relatively good, I could run again if I had to.

Last week on 9/27 I ran 150 minutes/16.1 miles, it also hurt but I felt good throughout. My legs were DEAD til the next Tuesday 10/2. I was rolling and icing and stretching more than ever to get some bounce back in them. My calves/achilles were like wooden peg legs, useless. This run definitely affected my downstream workouts big time, bikes and runs.

On both runs I can say that my nutrition and hydration were standardized. Also my cadence and HR were standard along with the routes. This is not the first time I have noticed the trend, I had similar issues in a build earlier this year for IMSTG.

Have I reached a personal threshold for long runs? Do others have similar experiences? I have 1 more run on the plan in excess of 120 minutes, I am thinking of cutting it down from 150 to 120-130 and adding intensity, thoughts? Am I the only one that hits a threshold and recovery required become logarithmic?

Thanks,

Gene

Al Truscott

 Gene...I'm with you on this. I seem to do just fine on a steady diet of 2 hour/13-14 mile runs. When I get past 15-16 miles, 130-140 minutes, my calves don't like it for days afterwards. Years past, training with Brand X plans, i would slog thru 3 hour runs, with much less success in IMs then I enjoy now. When the plans call for 150 minute runs, I often take Coach P's advice and split it 1:45-2 hours in AM, 30-45 on PM. Usually, I will do one straight 2.5 hour run 6-7 weeks out, but not the one(s) closer to race day. Doing this for the past 3-4 years, I've had no problems finishing the run on race day in 4-4.25 hours.

I don't worry about the "why" here; I have confidence now that my results won't be affected if I stick within my personal training limits.

Also, compression socks for a minimum of 24 hours (including while asleep) really helpme prevent the delayed onset muscle soreness. Others swear by stretching or foam rollers.

John Withrow

Everyone is Different. I think I remember WSM Al saying he doesn't do runs longer than 2 hrs (at least for a 2nd IM in a season).

My thoughts are if it's effecting your downstream workouts, then cut it off where ever you need to cut it off. You already have the fitness at this point. Maybe you cut it at 2hrs and add in some frequency by doing the other 30 mins before your Saturday ride. Or just skip it altogether.

Just don't think too hard about it. You are ~4 weeks away from an Ironman. Your body has spoken. Listen to it.

rmiller

As John said - everyone is different. The 2.5 hr long runs are great if you can do them, but certainly people have gotten by with great results (Al, above, winning his age group) modifying workouts to their own needs.



That being said - just to throw a few ideas out that might help, as they are things I've found to jump start recovery:

1) Brief stretch breaks every so often during a long run. You are doing long runs to build durability, so taking 2-3 minutes for quad/hip/hamstring stretches isn't a big deal

2) You say your nutrition is the same, so I'd assume that it feels 'fine' if it's always the same. Don't be afraid to start consuming a few more carbs towards the end of the run (like, the last 15 minutes) to get a start on refueling the muscles.

3) Recovery drinks and food. Personally, I use chocolate milk with added protein powder, and after long workouts on the weekends I get a chicken burrito with gaucamole. Personal preference, but it has lots of easily digestible protein, carbs and is loaded with nutrients.

4) Ice baths, or at least cold water (tap water ~55F is fine) baths immediately after the workout (after you stretch, of course) for 20 minutes. If you haven't tried it, it's well worth it. It's shocking at first, and tough to dip into a bath of cold water, but I find them extremely effective.



It may just be that you've found your limit for an acute dose of running that can be sustained week after week. Thats fine - just do what you can so that you don't compromise downstream workouts too much (I find if I run multiple days in a row, the recovery cost is higher than if I just take an extra day off to break up the pounding).

EDIT: Almost forgot!  Raising your legs after a workout!  Prop your legs up against a wall for 20 minutes or so.  In cases where I didn't have access to cold water, I've found this to be effective also.

John Withrow

On Ryan's edit: I remember Coach P used to say he would elevate his legs 1 minute for every mile he ran. You can lay on you back on the floor and put them up on a couch or against a wall. But I think it's a little late for you to try that now before FL, unless you do it in addition to cutting the run time back.

Gene

 Solid advice everyone.  I had totally forgotten about the raised legs. I also stopped doing ice baths several years ago because of the hassle.  My favorite recovery drink is low fat chocolate milk. Yummy. 

I think my key takeaway, mentioned by everyone , is to not let it effect the downstream workouts. I'm glad that others have similar experiences.  I will reduce the run next week. I personally don't like the idea multiple runs per day. I think it's a lot of abuse and once the recovery starts I don't want to go in reverse. Instill curious to hear others experiences on this topic and especially multiple runs in a day. Kepp it coming. 

Dino Sarti

Great thread. I will start my first ironman build next year. To date I keep "long" training runs to less than 10-12 miles. I am eager to start going longer though. Sounds like and interesting place to take yourself to...

Gene

 Dino,  it is an interesting place for sure. If done right its nothing to fear only benefit from. Much like Al, prior to EN I used to do 3-3.5 hr runs in a build. But I was in a "hole" of fatigue for almost 16 weeks. Now I know better, Thanks EN. Obviously what we are doing requires some volume and fatigue, but it is key to dose it out properly. The concept of protecting downstream workouts was new to me with EN. It is KEY in my opinion. I have to remember its not about the workout, it's only a means to apply stress. It's about the recovery, and stringing many workouts together. You'll enjoy the experience ahead, just listen to your body. 

coop6

Gene, I've had some better luck this year for my IMFL build juggling the workouts so that I swim only the day before a 2.5 hour run, and either off or short swim/run the day after. Just riding around with my kids on fat tire bikes seems to help too. Even if my legs are toast, they always feel better after that 30 minute easy ride for some reason.

Bruce Thompson

Gene - a couple of random thoughts. 

1. I never run the day before or the day after a long run.   It is swimming and riding only on those days, and usually just swimming the day after.  This does result in cutting the frequency of the runs by at least 1 vs the EN plan, but a high quality long run followed by a swim day really helps me recover and avoid injury.  I've been a runner for years so at this point a quality run trumps run frequency for me. In fact, about half the weeks I'll add the Friday run time to the Thursday long run, and skip the Friday run workout.

2.  If I'm going longer than 90'run, I'll  circlle back home and stop @ 90' to refill fuel belt bottles, change my kit (socks, shoes etc) so I don't get blisters.  I'll practice changing socks and shoes just like I'm in T2.  This whole pit stop usually takes 3-4' and helps my HR come down a little. It seems to help me stay fresh for the next hour and helps me to recover faster. 

3. After stretching, I apply ice to my knees, left heel (been sore since I hurt it last Feb) and any other part that hurts.  Ice is a wonder drug for me.

4. During the long run, I use the same Infinit formula and concentration that I'll race with.  And I keep fueling myself as if I'm planning on running a full marathon.  I think this helps me complete the workout and gets the recovery nutrition started while finishing the last few miles of the run.

Hope this helps.

 

Dave Tallo

Gene, as a first principle, I would agree that you ought to minimize the downstream cost of any workout. I think this is where the details start to matter. For example, scheduling the long run first thing in the morning, running on appropriate surfaces, focussing on form until you have finished the session... these all add up.

I try to approach the long run as the most serious session of the week, and with the same attention to these things as in a race. So, this means checking weather beforehand, planning the route where 90% of the surface is a running path or a track, using my lunchhour to stretch and really hydrate (despite my advice about morning runs, I do these after work .... it just works for me), making sure I have appropriately hydrated before, during and after the workout, making sure i have fueled and eaten before, during and after the workout, going for a 15 easy swim at the end, time permitting ... and so on.

The other piece is durability. Early EN (or CF ... can't remember right now) noted that "run a 1.5 - 2 long run / 3 long bike week after week, year after year, (*obviously, these get longer in-season), and there won't be anything you can't do in triathlon." I think moving towrads the 2 hour weekly run from now until eternity becoming just another session does obviate some of the downstream impact, but obviously this takes time.

rmiller

Absolutely, completely random thought I had this morning. It may be out of left field, but it has been known to be a factor for at least one person I know - iron levels in your diet. It's been shown in many studies that running depletes iron stores, and it occurred to me that if recovery is an issue, starting with feeling lethargic at the end of a long run, perhaps this is something to think about.

http://www.runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=20675

Gene

@ ;everyone,

Thanks for all the techniques and info.  It is amazing the multitude of ways people discover to overcome problems. 

On Thuresday I will run my normal out and back course, returning to home at the 125 minute mark.  This should be under my threshold.  Then I will run around the block a few times depending on how I feel in the moment.  I will pay close attention to my legs.  I will not go over 150 minutes max, but I may stop at 125 depending on my legs, weather, and how my hydration/nutrition have been on the run. 

Then chocolate milk, gatorade, shower, compression socks, roller and legs up. 

Unfortunately I cannot do the run til the evening, but my RR ride is being pushed til Sunday so I can watch Kona.  Even though the long run is in the evening I will get bonus recover time. 

My goal with the extrea loops is to flirt with an narrow down the threshold but not be stuck away from the house, or affect the downstream stuff. 

Thanks everyone!

Michele Cellai

Gene- I have 2 loops that are each 1 hour (almost to the minute). They take me past the end of my street where I stash bottles in the bushes and change out each loop. I have a 30 minute loop as well. I utilize all sorts of combinations to keep me close to home and not have to carry too much fluid. Legs up, ice bath, compression tights. I run in AM.