using 10K or 1/2M for VDOT
hey there
i've been digging thru the Wiki in my free time reading everything i can about run training. is there anyone out there who uses the 10K as their test run? i got this from the wiki but would love to hear some experiences.
Benchmark & Verify
But we don't just go out and run hard all the time, despite what the detractors say. We use the 5k test to make sure that we are not only getting fitter (which everyone thinks about) but to make sure we are training at the appropriate paces (what the coaches think about). Up or down vDOT doesn't matter so much to me as knowing you have the right vDOT.
But 5Ks aren't enough; we also can incorporate 10k and half marathon results to fine tune our vDOT for longer distances. After all, some of us are simply better 5K runners while others of us have a long history of running - we might have a 5k vDOT difference of 2 points but run very similar times on race day (all other execution and fitness factors being equal). As you exit the OutSeason then, you will do some open running races and we recommend you use those longer event times to calculate vDOT values that will be more appropriate to race day.
Comments
As an example, I use my 5K VDOT for training purposes. I base my IM pace off of my HM VDOT. Maybe a 10K VDOT is useful for HIM pacing?
That said, it's been borne out of necessity. First, I can't run a 5k to save my life. If I did, I would likely end up with a VDOT in the low 40s. However, I've been able to race IMs using paces from a VDOT of 52-53. Second, I literally can't run an all-out 5k: I have a kink in my illiac artery that inhibits blood flow at high intensities, so my leg essentially becomes 'wooden' at about 15 minutes in, and I lose significant strength. However, this doesn't present itself at longer distances or medium-high intensities.
As a result, I've needed to reverse engineer my VDOT based on IM Marathon results, HIM evidence, and as years of numbers and season-over-season experience start to accrue, and knowledge of where I out to be at, given X week in the program.
In the beginning of EN we did 10k tests. Let me just say that it was accurate, but doing that test every 6-8 weeks was a major SUCK!!!! I would rather have Coach Rich show up every 6-8 weeks and kick me in the nutz--same pain, shorter duration
. We've moved to the 5k which makes it much easier to repeat every few weeks (although it still sucks, but only 1/4 as much). I do think that doing a HM at the end of the OS does give you a gauge of running paces heading into your IM or HIM plan. You can see if you are a better short runner (5k) or longer runner (HM) and then adjust your Vdot accordingly within these metrics. I know for me that my 5k is much better than my longer tests, so I really focus on being able to maintain my 5k HM pace for longer periods of time rather than just sitting on my slow 1/2 marathon HM pace time.
Pace guidance suggest:
Marathon - minus 2.5 Vdot points
20 miler- 2
HM- 1.5
10 miler -1
Take into consideration heat and humidity and your own mental toughness there is an adjustment you need to make personally and that comes with experience.
thanks everyone. this is what i wanted to hear about.
rock on
I was always told the Jack's VDOT (or McMillan pacing Calculator) worked well if you were putting in substantial run volume and were aerobically fit across distances. Substantial was often defined as 60+ MPW with a good mix of intervals, tempo, mid-week medium LR and weekend LR. Now as tri folks we have the bike and swim that helps to offset the run volume shortage but I do think specifity plays a role.
I could get my times to line-up OK from 1mi through 10K - never got to my potential on HM and M (endurance and heat build-up I suppose).
I like Al's comment the most - using an open HM for IM pacing.
As a training plan tweak for 2013, I am debating doing some tempo style efforts (not Threshold pace per se) of up to 90 minutes (including w/up miles) in lieu of some of the broken long runs. Grinding at a comfortably hard pace for a long time is what race day is all about...
Substantial was often defined as 60+ MPW with a good mix of . . .
ugh. i'm so not there. i gotta run more.
thanks Jeff
Mike/Roy - yes, agreed, and thought I said as much above. The main point is there is an underlying assumption of very good fitness across the distances in both Daniel's VDOT and McMillan calculator. Seldom have I seen an athlete have their 5k, 10k, HM and M times line-up where the 5K pace is ~ 64-70 seconds per mile faster than M pace (as Frank Horwill would suggest -- 16 seconds slower per mile as distance doubles).
The other point to stress is that I believe (as Al suggests) an open HM is a far better test for setting IM run pacing than a 5K.
Jeff, Mike, Roy, Al, David
thanks guys, this is good stuff
Dave
What you see is part of the self coaching at EN. The only place I recall seeing a 10K or 1/2 is at the end of the OS as a recommended race to help test your new fitness at longer distances. Then use the IM or 1/2 IM training plans and race rehersals to guide your vdot going in to the race. The longer you track this information you the more data points you will have. Some know that 3 points off the 5k vdot is perfect for an IM others can squeeze that number down.
I came to EN the year they removed the 10K test so all I know is getting kicked in the nutz hurts. Well not true I've done a few 10Ks here and there as well.
Gordon
Just throw the half marathon time into the EN data tool, and use the resulting VDOT/LRP to guide your pacing for the IM. Assumning you are racing the HM, trying to go as fast as you can.
There have been alot of posts about this...and I think maybe someone touched on this below..but
The bottom line is...You have only one VDOT. like FTP...it is a measure associated with a single point...your maxVO2. It is best estimated by a 20 min. time trial (5k approximates this well)...the paces estimated for longer distances associated with that vDot are calculations based on assumption of optimum running efficiency, fitness level, and endurance (the ability to run at that %of maxVO2 for extended periods of time...etc. (and hold true as noted for a runners....training for those distances with appropriate mileage & focus)...
Comparing the "real" paces that you have run say for a 10k, HM, or marathon with your 5k established vDOT-estimated paces gives you some indication of how to alter your train to achieve your true potential (as indicated by your vDot/maxVO2 estimate) across longer and longer time/distance....ie. if you have a 52 vdot based on a 19:30 5k...it indicates you shold be able to run X for 10k , y for HM and z for Marathon...if you can't then achieve it means you need to work on either running efficiency, endurance at pace, or endurance...it doesn't mean your vDot is different at the different distance....your maxVO2 is your maxVO2 period.
..and for trianing you don't want to alter your vDot based on a "slower"/longer distance ..that would result in you training at too low an intensity to improve.
You should test for vDot at 20min/5k...and then just swag your pace for longer distances based on your experince.in training..or not..should hold for 5mi/10k..and even up to 1/2Mary........but sure we are not marathoners so should not expect to be able to carry our maxVO2 pace out that far....how much to swag....well hey thats were this team & experience can really help....but its not about different vDots.
If I have misread either my understanding of vDot.or the feedback in the posts...then please feel free to draw & quarter/pillory/beat me with sticks at the next EN rally..
@ JL - I think you're spot on. I certainly use a 5k race to set my VDOT which I use for training purposes. But many of us have discovered that, at least given the amount we're able to train running, trying to race an IM marathon at the LRP which that VDOT produces is just not feasible. The coaches, for example often advise dropping that VDOT by 2-2.5 points, and using the LRP from that to set the IM run pace. Alternatively, some of us have the experience that an HM time done relatively close to an IM produces a vdot >> LRP which can be achieved during an IM - meaning allowing one to go at a steady, even pace the whole way.
To summarize advice for the generic EN newbie: use a 5K TT or race to get training paces, and then train at those speeds unless and until you get a lower VDOT from a faster 5K. If you are anxious about being able to perform at LRP on IM race day, consider figuring out your pace from a VDOT 2-3 points lower, or from a recent HM time plugged into the data tool.
Since I rarely do HIMs anymore, I don't know how this template applies to that distance, except that, of course, you still have to do the 5K TT/race and train at those resulting paces.
Great stuff everyone. i hope the trial folks are reading this. lots of EN value here.
Dave
Really interesting thread... but I'm missing something with using a 1/2 mary time to calculate VDOT. How do you "throw the half marathon time into the EN data tool"? I only see an entry for a 5k time. Do you figure out your 5k pace in the 1/2 mary and throw that into the tool? My last 1/2 mary was last October at 1:46 (8:09 pace), and I also just did a 1/2 IM with a 1:53 run (8:40 pace). Should I use the 1/2 IM run? Just curious to see how that VDOT would compare to my 5k, and what the associate LRP would be.
So for me at least, the same pacing advice applies to HIM as it does for the IM run, I can't hold MP for the run at HIM distance.
While I haven't yet completed an IM run, I assume the same thing applies and rather than target EP (which is 80% of TP), I will target 75% of TP — which at my 40 Vdot is 10:58 mins per mile, rather than the EP of 10:10 mins per mile.
If you check the Vdot that corresponds to a EP of around 10:58, the answer is a Vdot of 36.7 — meaning that if I subtract 3.7 points from my 5 km Vdot, then the Vdot tables give me "doable" paces over longer distances.
Juie...The absolute best way is to do a test or run a 5k; especially If you just starting OS for example ...why not just test rather than try to back calculate.
I really think you will see a different/higher VDot value than if you back calculate from your HM...(unless if you do that and the 5k pace makes sense)...but for example my last HM I ran at 1:34...which according to the tables equates to a 49.5 vDot and 20:39 performance @ 5k
...but my 5k/Test time pace was almost 1min. faster...(19:35 )which is a 51.5 vDot
...which is a fairly significant difference in training intensity...almost 30 sec./mi @ Easy pace...and 10-15 sec./mile @ tempo pace...