Muscle Cramping
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Does anyone have any thoughts on cramping? Often, when I finish a race, my calves almost alway cramp. Not just a cramp the muscle painfully contracts and does not release. Afterwards my calves are bruised, almost as if I was punched. It happened yesterday as I was finishing an OWS. I hydrate. I use salt sticks. I stretch. I am stumped. --Larry
Paul HoughPickle juice is your friend.
Penny WilsonAre you hydrated? How much salt? If you are bruised that is serious.
Ryan MillerYou might have better luck posting this in the nutrition forum - dashboard posts will get pushed down and once this gets out of sight, it's lost to the ether.
Also, this is a perfect opportunity to demonstrate what makes EN so great. Penny is one of the expert nutritionists/dietitians 'round these parts - she knows her stuff. So even if you feel like you're hydrated and using salt sticks sufficiently - if she questions your salt intake, it's worth investigating further. People vary quite a bit in their salt requirements - you may just be someone who requires more than the average bear. Posting this question in a forum will allow the conversation to get to the level of detail about determining salt requirements (if there's not already a thread that touches upon it).
Also, this is a perfect opportunity to demonstrate what makes EN so great. Penny is one of the expert nutritionists/dietitians 'round these parts - she knows her stuff. So even if you feel like you're hydrated and using salt sticks sufficiently - if she questions your salt intake, it's worth investigating further. People vary quite a bit in their salt requirements - you may just be someone who requires more than the average bear. Posting this question in a forum will allow the conversation to get to the level of detail about determining salt requirements (if there's not already a thread that touches upon it).
Larry RodmanGood thought Ryan, I will re-post in that forum. Penny, I drink Nuun as I run (when thirsty), and have a salt stick before the race, I also try to have one per hour while racing. Before races (and long runs) I drink 8oz. of iskiate. I do sweat a ridiculous amount though.
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I use plenty of high sodium products including salt stick and plan to try some pickle juice as well.
I can x3 the pickle juice remedy. I've suffered with major leg cramps in every 70.3 I've done. The last one I brought a (too) small amount of pickle juice for T2 and the run. It works very rapidly to shut down cramping ~ 30sec to 1 minute. But I found 6oz only lasted me the first 6.5miles of the run. So based on Paul's suggestions (Thanks PH!) I'm loading up pickle juice pre race, in each Transition, and taking as much as I can carry in my fuel belt for the run from now on.
I haven't used Pickle Juice sport, so I dont know about the taste, but I tried real pickle juice which actually tastes pretty darn good in the race. Speculation is that the vinegar in PJ has a neuro-muscular influence on resetting muscle spasms rather than the sodium.
Prevention wise, research is inconclusive as to cause. Sodium levels may be a factor as Penny said, and there are other important factors to make sure you have a appropriate sodium intake during the race. Convential wisdom is 600-1000mg per hour. But sweat rates and diet levels are highly variable to the individual, so sweat testing is a more analytic method. See wiki entry: http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/Wiki/tabid/108/Default.aspx?topic=Sweat+Trial+Instructions
Other potential causes can be over exertion, too fast pacing, and being prone to cramping previously. A couple are fixable, the last doesnt really seem to be.
As for during the swim, I read something about ankle/calve flexibility being the prime factor for cramps during the swim, but I dont remember where that article is now. Maybe google will come up with somthing.
Thats my brain dump on what I've learned about cramping, so far.
That.. made me burst out laughing at my desk.
So I guess some clarifying questions for the OP:
1) Does it happen during any activity (swimming/biking/running) or only running?
2) Have you ever done a sweat test to see how much fluid (and by some swag-estimation, electrolytes) loss you incur?
3) Has this always been an issue, or only after a certain point in your training progression (increased intensity, frequency, age, etc)
4) Does it happen after a certain amount of time - like, does it only occur after the 90 minute mark during a half marathon or olympic triathlon?
5) The bruising is wierd - do you typically bruise easily?
What dietary supplements are you taking?
I had not thought about it, though it is certainly possible that it is from trying to rub out the cramp. I has always assumed it was from the muscle locking up so suddenly, and for such a long time. I do not take any meds, and the only thing a take each day is a One-A-Day multivitamin.
To answer some of the questions.
Yes, still OWS in NH. I do not swim alone, and I have a swim float I bring with me, just in case. (Orange, inflatable, designed for swimming) I think only one or two more weeks of swimming I think. (Come join me Friday in Brookline Tim, or anyone. Lake Potanipo, 5:00 pm)
1) Does it happen during any activity (swimming/biking/running) or only running?
It happens during all three disciplines. I had received a suggestion my bike seat was too high and could be a contributing factor. I lowered the seat 1/2" and it seems to have helped, a little.
2) Have you ever done a sweat test to see how much fluid (and by some swag-estimation, electrolytes) loss you incur?
I have not done an official sweat test, however last week I weighed myself nekid, before and after a six mile, 52 minute run. I lost 3 pounds. (I consumed 16 ounces during the run)
3) Has this always been an issue, or only after a certain point in your training progression (increased intensity, frequency, age, etc)
The first time this happened was during my first half-marathon, at the 8 mile mark. I had a very painful walk to the finish, at which point my calves both spasmed.
4) Does it happen after a certain amount of time - like, does it only occur after the 90 minute mark during a half marathon or olympic triathlon?
This usually happens just after I have finished a workout/race. On occassion during, though that is rare. (It happened in T2 of a race this year. I had a miserable run after that) I try to hydrate as soon as I finish a race (coconut water) and have some greek yogurt. I also stretch and do some yoga poses (downward dog, etc) and it does not seem to help.
5) The bruising is wierd - do you typically bruise easily?
No, I rarely bruise (and I spend a lot of time with two energetic 8 year olds)
I also eat (I think) a balanced diet. My own Oatmeal mix for breakfast, almonds and greek yogurt for a snack, chicken and veggies for lunch, and lean white meats or fish for dinner. I rarely eat red meat. I love my veggies and fruits.
I am running a marathon this Sunday, and I am planning on increasing the number of salt sticks I take.
Thank you everyone for your help with this. It is very appreciate.
--Larry
At Bill ... You cracked me up too, but the real stuff tastes just as bad to me. You have to be disparate to try this stuff and I was. However, I have to admit that it's no big deal now ... Probably because my taste buds are dead.
More questions:
- Are you a salty sweater? Is your skin gritty? White rings on your clothes when you're done working out?
- What color is your pee after you cramp up?
Now for a reality check. Most people who cramp, do so primarily because of dehydration. Second main cause is sodium. If you lost 3 pounds in 52 minutes and drank 16 oz that means you need between 64 and 88 oz of fluid per hour. The fact that you're only taking in 16 oz/hour is a HUGE red flag to me.
Here are my thoughts:
1) You need to increase your fluid intake to as much as you can realistically drink per hour. I'm not saying get water logged, but that you need to drink more. You can take in more than you think. 30 - 40 oz should be do-able, but will probably take you some time to get up to. Yes, it is a lot. People usually freak out when I talk about that much fluid, but you can train yourself and your gut to take it down (drinking fluid with carbohydrates and/or sodium will help with absorption). I have a client who used to drink 10 - 16 oz per hour and would go into full body cramps. He sweats well over 100 oz/hour. We got him up to about 40 oz per hour and this, along with increasing his sodium, stopped his cramps. Just sayin'.
2) Depending on how salty a sweater you are, and based on the info above, you need anywhere between 1000 to almost 3000 mg of sodium per hour. You may want to look at pre-loading. There are some good discussions on that in the forums.
3) What and how much are you drinking during the day? What color is your pee first time you go in the morning. It should be pale lemonade to clear unless you are taking vitamins. If it is darker than pale lemonade you need to be drinking more. You could be starting out dehydrated.
4) I bet you are not using the salt shaker and cooking without much salt in your daily life. You probably need to bump up your sodium intake on a daily basis. Not necessarily a lot, but using some salt wouldn't hurt you (I'm presuming you don't have any medical conditions what would invalidate this). The low salt information is really for Joe Couchsitter, not for athletes, particularly those who are heavy salt sweaters. Just a shake or two at meals can help.
5) In the couple of days prior to your race, you may want to bump up your salt intake just a little more by alternating water with G2 or water with Nuun.
My concern with the bruising is that if it is happening from the cramping (not the rubbing) then you are tearing your muscles to the point that they are bleeding (some of the Docs can confirm or deny this, but intuitively that seems what has to happen). If it is from the rubbing (more likely) you are just breaking the blood vessels below the skin rather than tearing the muscles. If your pee after you cramp is applejuice color you need to get to the ER because you may be dealing with Rabdo - severe muscle damage that releases myoglobin into the bloodstream. Rabdo can cause serious kidney damage and even death.
Hope ths helps. Look forward to your answers. Hopefully, we can get you through your marathon this weekend without cramping.
He also talked about one triathlete he worked with who lost 25 grams of salt after a 2 hour bike and 2 hour run in simulated Kona conditions.
Another interesting fact - 8 cans of V8 is equal to the amount of sodium in 1L of saline IV. Not sure I'd want to drink 8 cans of V8 after a race, but thought it was an interesting fact.
There isn't a good way to test sodium content of sweat right now. Patches over-estimate and whole-body washdown is just hard to do.
Clearly I need to increase the volume of fluids I intake, and the amount of sodium I intake. And I had always thought I drank too much during the day.
I start each day with one cup of coffee. I drink water throughout the day, and always keep a water bottle with me at work. I will start drinking more. For this weekends marathon I will start with the G2 and Nuun today. I will take many more salt sticks than I was planning on as recently as Monday.
You are right about the salt when I eat. I have no idea if my salt shaker has any salt in it. I only use salt when I am cooking. I will have to change that as well.
So much to learn...I am always amazed at the volume of my ignorance.
--Larry
I don't think you necessarily need more water on a non-race day. What I think you need is more daily salt.
I'd shoot for 2000mg sodium per hour during your marathon.
Be sure and keep us posted about how your race goes!
Question for Penny - if he's used to 1 salt stick/hr (which from what I just looked up, is in the range of ~200 mg each), is it ok to jump up to 2000 mg/hr? I know excess salt just gets passed through urine, but I'm just curious if going from 1 salt stick to something like... 10 (to get to 2000 mg/hr).. might cause an upset stomach or something. Obviously this is minus any sodium that might be taken in via sports drink or other sources.
Larry: Spread the salt out over the hour. Don't take it all at once. As Ryan said, calculate how much salt you will get from other sources then fill the gap with salt tabs. If it turns out you still need a lot, you may want to get a hold of something with more salt like S!Caps (there are other innings, but I don't have my list with me). If you get a new product, you want to stay with the same source - sodium chloride or sodium citrate, read the label - until after the race and you have time to test another product/source if you need to change.
Good news. I ran the marathon today, and no cramps. I took a salt stick every 20 minutes, and a Hammer Gel every 45 minutes. I also drank at almost every aide station, and all 56 ounces I carried with me. I felt a slight 'twinge' at mile 22, and that was it. I hit the port-o-potties 5 times, and was all clear. I would never had such success without all of your assistance, especially Penny. I am going to take some time to recover, then enter my season plan. Nutrition and hydration is going to be a major focus going forward.
Nice work making and then executing the adjustments you need for success. Well done.
Larry - Congrats on your "No Cramp" marathon success.
Race morning I woke up and had my one cup of coffee.
On the way to the race I ate 1 1/2 whole grain bagels, plain and drank a liter of G2
30 minutes prior to the race I drank 8oz. of iskiate (1tbs chia seeds, 1 tbs lime juice, 1 tbs organic brown sugar, water to the top) that had been made the day before so the seeds would absorb the water.
Gels and Salt Stick:
15 minutes before the race I ate a pack of Gatorade Prime Gels, and took 2 salt sticks with a little water
20 minutes into the race (and every 20 minutes until the end) I took another salt stick
45 minutes into the race I took a Hammer Gel. I then continued with the Hammer gels every 30 - 40 minutes with 2 exceptions. 1 at mile 18 or so I took a GU Gel (The flavor sounded good) and my final gel was a Honey Stinger Gingsting.
Hydration:
I carried 28 ounces of Nuun in my FuelBelt and drank that as I ran
At the 13 mile mark I swapped my now empty bottles with 28 fresh ounces of Nuun
At the 13 mile mark I drank another 8oz. of iskiate
At almost every aide station I drank Gatorade.
If I had just eaten a gel, I would first grab a water to wash it down, and then drink the gatorade.
I was running with a friend who had never run a marathon before. He drank from his CamelBak (water) and took the occasional Gatorade from the aide stations. He started to have major issues with his Quads. He was also at times taking Endurolytes. We had to stop and walk sometimes, he was in distress. I hit the port-o-potties 5 times I believe, he did not go once. Not even after the race. From the time the race ended, until he dropped me off at home was three hours. He realized he had a bad plan, and felt badly that I stuck with him instead of running my race. It was certainly interesting, having learned just a little, how much is preventable.
Post race hydration was water and gatorade. They ran out of beer from the half-marathoners who finished 2 hours or so before me. :-(
--Larry
I was going to suggest it before, but didn't want to cram you with too much info 2 days before the marathon: if you haven't done so, check out the nutrition webinar that was held a couple months ago. There is a lot of information about what to look for in products, replacing electrolytes, recovery, etc. It's titled the race fueling seminar, but here's a link
http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/Wiki/tabid/108/Default.aspx?topic=Race+Fueling+Webinar+(Jesse+Kropelnicki)
Well worth the hour it takes to watch it.
A time you certainly need to worry, though, is if you are usually a big salty sweater and you STOP sweating salty. That's a pretty strong indicator that you're low on salt.
....caveat here being that I'm a total amateur that has read, not a health professional at all.
I've actually wondered much the same thing - if you are caked in salt at the end of a workout, does that mean you have taken in too much salt, or that you need that much more to keep a balance? I asked that on the nutrition webinar, but didn't really get a great answer specific to the question I was asking.
After thinking about it some more, though, I've come to the conclusion that if you lose a lot of salt in your sweat, then you need to take in more salt as a result - regardless of the situation. It's one of those things that just balances itself out.
As far as I've researched (that is my qualifier here - I'd love for someone to confirm it or point out flaws!), there are two primary mechanisms by which salt leaves the body - sweat and kidneys (urine). Normal everyday salt intake is balanced via the renal system and excess salt is removed that way, assuming generally normal renal function. Naturally, differences from one person to the next will dictate whether one person retains more salt than the next. When you start sweating, some of that sodium is redirected and leaves the body via sweat. In either case, whether you are a salty sweater or not, your bodies natural balance has been altered and salt needs to be replenished. So, with some people it'll be more like 500 mg/hr (light salter), others may be closer to 2000 mg/hr (heavy salter), depending on the baseline balance their body started with in the first place.
However, I do agree that when sweat loses its saltiness, it's time to get more concerned. I've certainly noticed a decreasing progression of salt when I go to Bikram Yoga.. First portion of class, my sweat is salty. By the end of class, after 90 minutes, there's barely any salt left in it. When I bring sports drink with me, it remains salty throughout the entire class, and I don't leave in quite such an exhausted state.