that is the difference between ST & EN, on ST, you every jackarse in the world hiding behind monikers. Many of them are probably the same person logging in under different names to bear relevance to their argument by having their sock puppets come to their aid. Jordan is very well spoken, smart, and thoughtful. the number of people on ST that openly admit to having a "mancrush" on him is absolutely scary.
Still think the best part in that thread is when Mike G (aka. phabio) swoops in and eloquently gives Rapp a scolding. Not sure why I thought it was so damn funny at the time, but apparently I still do.
But yeah, Jordan tends to get a bit huffy at times because he doesn't always understand that us mortals (i.e. AGers) live in a whole different world than he does. Other than that, I don't think he's a bad guy.
Just read the ST Posts. Thought it was kind of interesting he kept using transition running and brick running interchangeably. To me brick running is getting off your bike and going for a run of x distance with no real thought about technique. No real value in that except to say I just did this awesome brick work out I rock. Transition running is practicing the art of transitioning from the bike to the run where the individual is focusing on technique, cadence etc and it is not long in duration. I practice all aspects of transitions from Swim to bike and from bike to run
I just finished reading both ST threads. While I guess I should have known, it was all new to me.
There goes an hour or so that I will never get back.
Well I know we've gone more than a little off topic with this little jaunt down memory lane; however I feel I should point out one final thing.
One of the most common defenses utilized by some of the more vocal EN opponents on ST, specifically Paulo, is the notion of the EN "cult" and the speculation that ST is closely monitored within the haus. That is, RnP beat the wardrum and coerce members into staging planned and organized counterattacks to anyone who dare sully the good name of Endurance Nation.
In reality, this about as coordinated of a discussion as we've ever had about this topic, and even then it's entirely in post mortem. There is no strategizing; there is no plan of attack. What is even more funny is just how many of us are longtime ST lurkers and don't even know each other’s ST usernames. I can't tell you how many times I've corresponded with or read responses from various posters for great lengths of time before I realized they were actually someone I knew from within EN.
That I suppose is sort of the ultimate testament to EN. Despite the fact that our ST presence is so incredibly not-coordinated we don’t even know who each other are most of the time, there is such a consistent and widespread positive response to these topics by both current and former members that people can come up with no other explanation than it’s staged or we’re “brainwashed”.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to get back to my normal operating mode: MUST RECRUIT NEW MEMBERS, MUST RECRUIT NEW MEMBERS, MUST RECRUIT NEW... . . . . . .
Part of the ST anti-EN sentiment comes from the "no swimming in the off-season" thing that gets spun by the idiots into EN says not to swim. Ever. Then it becomes ST Gospel Truth.
I have taken Jordan to task for some of his shots at EN because, frankly, Jordan doesn't live in the same universe as we do. He's a pro with a genetic gift and absolutely doesn't understand how a typical AG'er lives and deals with training. Part of that is maddening since he does have a masters degree in rocket science from Princeton so he's obviously really smart. Part of it is sort of charming that he doesn't realize he's a genetic god and thinks he's a regular dude.
There was also the time someone (who will remain nameless but posted in this thread) openly reveled on ST about Jordan DNF'ing at IMAZ and stated it was karma getting over on Jordan for his EN bashing. Said person apologized and manned up about it later but that was painful. That rubbed many people on ST the wrong way... as it should have. Sorry to bring that back up again but that hurt EN's reputation over there despite RnP going into full spin control to stop the bleeding.
Not to go totally off topic, but I've been following this thread all day, and this has been really interesting. I was unaware of a lot of the history between ST/Rapp and EN. I only joined EN last week, but one of things that really struck me during my trial period where I must have read almost every thread in the forums is the professional and courteous tone in all the discussions, no matter how simple a question is asked (I lurk on ST and quite frankly have been shocked at how negative a tone many posts now seem to take almost immediately.). For a MOPer who just loves the sport and wants to enjoy it and learn about it some more, EN provides a great atmosphere!
And no worries, next time I'll ask a question about power!
Kate, what you will find is that EN has a feeling of a family. NO not like a cult family, but people that really care about each other. You can open yourself up in the EN Haus and not be worried about being blasted in any kind of negative way. In fact, the humor and self depreciating nature are awesome. There will be good natured ribbing,not the in your face degradation you will see on other sites. In fact, some of our members have gone through SERIOUS situations from car accidents, illness of a loved one, death, divorce etc.. and they have learned to lean on the EN family for support. These folks rock.
Kate -- well said. You highlight one of the things that makes EN special. We treat each other the way adults want to be treated, whether on-line or in person.
Welcome to EN!!! And ask all the power questions you can think of. You'll get a quick and insightful answer from one of the members.
One thing I have learned about EN is that you had better double check your facts before you contradict or discount another's opinion. For one thing there are some pretty smart folks here. And another thing is that you very well may see that person at your next race, so that person will be able to put a name to my jerk face if I treat them poorly. Rapp doesn't think he has to worry about that, but he is wrong.
Interesting tread! Can't remember where I got it, but I have been using it a lot lately - "blowing out someone else's candle, doesn't make yours shine any brighter."
Rapp is a really smart guy. I don't read ST much any more, but I think he's centered in the semi-pro Kona-bound mindset, i.e., the guy who can train 20+ hours a week, rest as much as s/he needs, etc. And within that world, I think a lot of what he has to say makes more sense than it does in my 13-18 hours a week, three kids in school, job, wife, and I'm still really juggling world.
Rapp is a really smart guy. I don't read ST much any more, but I think he's centered in the semi-pro Kona-bound mindset, i.e., the guy who can train 20+ hours a week, rest as much as s/he needs, etc. And within that world, I think a lot of what he has to say makes more sense than it does in my 13-18 hours a week, three kids in school, job, wife, and I'm still really juggling world.
I was thinking the same thing in perusing that thread - ie, don't these people get that he has > 1 hr per day to devote to stuff like brick workouts and swimming in the winter? I did see someone post about how the EN philosophy is certainly not written in stone, but is centered around ROI, etc. Was happy to see that at least one person brought that up.
I also saw a couple people in that thread that I've run into on other forum sites - dailymile. beginnertriathlete, etc. Re-reminded me why I stopped wasting time on those sites once I found EN. These people take suggestions directly from someone like Rapp, without recognizing that their own situation is completely different.
What was the oringal topic again? Sorry, I've been too busy creating over 260 Season Plans + screencasts for members and trials in the last two weeks, preparing brand new OS, Bike/Run focus plans, answering emails, PM's, forum posts and generally crushing it and trying to over deliver on the customer service and coaching front to pay much attention to what else is going on out there. Oh, and Patrick has been at a little race in Hawaii with 12 other members, we'll both be at Florida, I'll be at IMAZ, we are organizing our National Rally and series of regional camps, tri rallies on the IMLP and IMWI course, and...and....and
Which is to say we are professional coaches without a second job. This is all. we. do, 24/7. The reason why we don't get in junk measuring contests elsewhere is because we have people who pay us to, you know, actually coach them and stuff.
Patrick and I are in a very good place because EN and YOU have created for all of us a very, very cool place. If I had to wade into the cesspool that are some other triathlon forums on a day to day basis I would have shot myself long ago. I can't tell you what it means to PnI to come into a place where people have real first and last names, speak to each other like real people, call each other by real names, know each others' names, see each other in the real world and, by the way, are identified by their real names. Did I mention real names?
At the end of day, our triathlon forum jujitsu is very strong, though it's fookin' awesome that we rarely have to use it these days. Why? Because we've both been external forum-free for a long time and we have so much fun over here. Soooooo much better to not have that level of negativity in your life. But when I do, my tact now is to simply:
Answer good questions, fully and respectfully
Ignore the ones I don't want to answer.
Close with "you're welcome to create a free trial membership and speak with my members about how we coach them, the value and service we provide for them, etc."
My closing in the infamous Jordan Thread was my smartass way of saying "why don't you come over and talk to my 600 athletes, who are all crushing it and doing some really, really cool things for each other, about how jacked up I am." If done in the real world it would have been closed with firm handshake and a hearty GFY .
Which is all to say that PnI wake up every day fully aware of how lucky we are. But immediately after that we turn to our full time, 100% on all the time jobs of improving everything we can think of, all the time, without. ever. stopping.
Not to keep dragging this topic up because it really is much ado about nothing, but I actually got to spend some time with Jordan last night at a TCSD (tri club san diego) event. He did an interview with Bob Babbitt then hung around afterwards where I got to talk to him 1-on-1 for a bit.
Not all too surprisingly (to me at least), he’s a pretty likable guy in person. He’s kind of nerdy/goofy as you might expect from an engineer, and all and all he is more down to earth than you might expect based off his slowtwitch persona. However, listening to his story it is very obvious just how different his life experience has been than that your ‘normal’ person. Quite simply, he has just been extremely fortunate (minus the whole left for dead car accident thing), both in terms of his upbringing (and finicial stature of his parents) and clearly in terms of his genetics. It was also pretty clear he has received rather generous finicial support in pursuing his goals, as well as access to Olympic-caliber coaching for pretty much every sport he has participated in.
It is not to say that he has not or does not work hard, but it was also very clear that he has had near immediate results in nearly every sport he picks up, and I just don’t think his experiences have given him sufficient context to understand just how truly hard ‘normal’ people have to work to even just be MOP sometimes in contrast to the people who just show up to their first event without a clue and end up nearly winning overall.
For better or worse, it was kind of a sobering reminder of just how important a role the genetic lottery plays in all of this. I would very much like to find an underdog story in triathlon, that one case that proves your normal average joe, one of us, can climb his way to the top through the force of sheer will and determination. But honestly, that is just now how this sport works, you were either born with it, or you weren't.
Speaking from those of hearty peasant stock, the genetic outliers are just something you have to accept and deal with. There will always be those things which you work very, very hard at that seem to come near effortlessly to others. And for the freaks of nature, hopefully they can maintain some perspective and remain cognizant of the fact that simply being born a certain way is simply a different kind of personal achievement than one that you've earned entirely on your own.
Umm.... is anyone else's head spinning at how FREAKING INTELLIGENT TREVOR IS???? Seriously, dude. You are using seven syllable words and I just said... dude.
I'm only jumping in as response to your comment, "I would very much like to find an underdog story in triathlon, that one case that proves your normal average joe, one of us, can climb his way to the top through the force of sheer will and determination." If you haven't read Chrissie's book, pick it up. I was under the assumption that she was simply a genetically gifted freak of nature that was born and raised in the pool and on the track. That couldn't be further from the truth. There is definitely a level of serendipitous genetics there, but when it comes down to it, she's just a normal person who worked her tail off when she realized she had potential. I truly believe she's more surprised than anyone at the successes she's achieved.
We had the opportunity to meet her at a small book signing this past spring and she said something I'll never forget: "I don't aspire to mediocrity." Love that.
[Umm.... is anyone else's head spinning at how FREAKING INTELLIGENT TREVOR IS???? Seriously, dude. You are using seven syllable words and I just said... dude!]
@Jess.... Nope your not the only one... I read what he writes and say I wish I could speak or write half that well! He is also one hell of a nice guy I had the pleasure of meeting and racing with at IMMT not to mention absolutely blazingly fast!
One of my long time heroes was the late Dr. George Sheehan. For those unfamiliar with Dr. Sheehan, he was a cardiologist who discovered running late in life. He wrote a number of terrific books; most on the philosophical/mental aspects/benefits of running. His monthly column was the main reason I subscribed to Runners' World Magazine for a couple of decades.
He was a terrific, very competitive AG runner and was known for leaving everything he had on the course, and often collapsed at the finish.
In his later years he developed prostate cancer, and it ultimately killed him. As a result of this illness, he continued to run slower and slower and worked his way backwards through the pack. As he made this journey he stated that he was amazed that throughout the pack, no matter how slow their pace, the majority seemed to be working and pressing and competing as hard as they could. Prior to this journey he always thought that the people behind him were sort of lollygagging along and only the faster folks were really competing.
I have had the same experience as I age and slow.
Perhaps Mr. Rapp will make the same discovery as he ages and slows.
Jess, I agree to an extent about Chrissie and likewise picked up her book at a small book signing earlier in the year. Chrissie is definitely in stark contrast to Jordan, and well pretty much everyone else, that someone can have unparalled success and still be incredibly humble and down to earth. Really, it is just impossible not to like Chrissie, even moreso when you meet her in person.
However, while she undoubtedly has worked tremendously hard and faced many of the same fears and doubts that we all do, she is also undenaibly genetically gifted. I think she just does a much better job of keeping it all in perspective than perhaps some others do.
As for myself, I strongly maintain that I'm not actually of any particular above-average intelligence, but boy am I good at faking it
As I read Trevor's post, I was reminded of one of my favorite professors in college. He taught, among other classes, Pholosophy of Sport. He continually challenged our understanding of sporting achievements. One of his favorite teaching tools was to compare Michael Jordan making a free throw v. A six year old making a free throw. The six year old's feat is far more impressive from an athletic achievement standpoint. I would submit the same is true with our sport. The achievements of the professional athletes are remarkable, but the accomplishments of the part-time AGers are even more so.
I also love I received college credit for taking a class called Philosophy of Sport.
Taking this a bit off on a bit of a tangent, but stay with me here. Honestly, it doesn't surprise me that Jordan Rapp comes across as a nice person when you meet him face-to-face. I don't know him at all, but have read what he writes on Slowtwitch, and have followed this thread. On Slowtwitch, he comes across as a knowledgeable person, and he has way more talent than I have ever had. However, I have always been a bit put off by his style of writing, as he tends to back his horse 100% and bash any other horse in the race. For example, I know that he is sponsored by Zipp, but he has been so pro-Zipp and anti-HED that it is laughable. His defense of why Zipp costs so much more than HED (or most other wheels out there) gets to be a bit much.
BUT... what I find most amusing about Slowtwitch is how arrogant and mean-spirited some of them can be when they sit behind the security of their keyboards and screens. I would bet that, when they are confronted face-to-face, they aren't nearly that confident of their opinions. What I like about EN is that (I suspect) that most (heck, even all) of us act the same behind the keyboard and screen as we do in everyday life. I've always tried to follow the idea that you should act the same way over the internet or phone as you would in person, and I think that seems to be the sentiment here as well.
Quite simply, he has just been extremely fortunate (minus the whole left for dead car accident thing), both in terms of his upbringing (and finicial stature of his parents) and clearly in terms of his genetics. It was also pretty clear he has received rather generous finicial support in pursuing his goals, as well as access to Olympic-caliber coaching for pretty much every sport he has participated in.
It is not to say that he has not or does not work hard, but it was also very clear that he has had near immediate results in nearly every sport he picks up, and I just don’t think his experiences have given him sufficient context to understand just how truly hard ‘normal’ people have to work to even just be MOP sometimes in contrast to the people who just show up to their first event without a clue and end up nearly winning overall.
For better or worse, it was kind of a sobering reminder of just how important a role the genetic lottery plays in all of this. I would very much like to find an underdog story in triathlon, that one case that proves your normal average joe, one of us, can climb his way to the top through the force of sheer will and determination. But honestly, that is just now how this sport works, you were either born with it, or you weren't.
Speaking from those of hearty peasant stock, the genetic outliers are just something you have to accept and deal with. There will always be those things which you work very, very hard at that seem to come near effortlessly to others. And for the freaks of nature, hopefully they can maintain some perspective and remain cognizant of the fact that simply being born a certain way is simply a different kind of personal achievement than one that you've earned entirely on your own.
Trevor, first, you've definitely got a way with words. Well said.
Second, I've got to tell a bit of a story here. See, I was a kid who walked on to the Cornell Lightweight Rowing team. We competed against the best teams in the US, and were usually competitive, though never quite medal-contenders. Among my accomplishments were 8th, 7th and 4th in the country in various events at collegiate nationals.
But here's where Jordan and I differ. I was cut from the team my freshman year. Multiple times. Coach just couldn't make me go away, and I kept working my way back. I was the last guy on the roster, wasn't invited to the January training camp, and was the last invite for the March training camp, where I finally earned a seat in a boat for the spring (which I later learned was due to significant kismet). For three more years, I had to fight uphill battles because I wasn't a kid like Jordan (ideal body, pedigree, measurables). I ended up earning the stroke seat of the varsity boat my Junior and Senior year, but not because anything was given to me.
I worked my ass off, for 4 years, to compete with and against people who know success as their right. I'm much more proud than most of them to list the accomplishments above. Frankly, Jordan would look at those results (if he knew the details) and say, "meh, average rower at best." And he might be right, as I was never a national team contender (several of my teammates were).
I will always believe that "Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard", which is an inspiration to the rest of us, and a cautionary tale to the talented. I respect the fact that he seems to be hard-working talent. Just also think his attitude is pretty typical of the national team-type rowers I've known in my life. Not universal, but typical. Probably upsets me more than most because I can say with a great deal of confidence that I wouldn't have had the shots I had at a program like Princeton.
Mike - you are correct... Hard work beats talent - especially when talent doesn't work hard! Well said - and CONGRATS on your rowing/tri accomplishments > regardless of what Jordan (or anyone) might say!!
Umm.... is anyone else's head spinning at how FREAKING INTELLIGENT TREVOR IS???? Seriously, dude. You are using seven syllable words and I just said... dude.
I'm only jumping in as response to your comment, "I would very much like to find an underdog story in triathlon, that one case that proves your normal average joe, one of us, can climb his way to the top through the force of sheer will and determination." If you haven't read Chrissie's book, pick it up. I was under the assumption that she was simply a genetically gifted freak of nature that was born and raised in the pool and on the track. That couldn't be further from the truth. There is definitely a level of serendipitous genetics there, but when it comes down to it, she's just a normal person who worked her tail off when she realized she had potential. I truly believe she's more surprised than anyone at the successes she's achieved.
We had the opportunity to meet her at a small book signing this past spring and she said something I'll never forget: "I don't aspire to mediocrity." Love that.
Chrissie is just being humble and playing things up but don't believe that bullshit for a second that she's not a genetically gifted specimen. Yes, she has worked hard. No, you don't win every Ironman race you've ever been in on hard work alone. She's a freak, whether she likes to admit it or not.
Wow! Interesting, although after reading both ST threads I am saddened by the loss of my hour. But glad to confirm what I already knew: that I am dang fortunate and glad to have found EN!
And I agree - Trevor, great writing! And Mike, stories like yours are a true inspiration! LOVE LOVE LOVE stories of hard work, persistence, and a "never give up" attitude!
Mike, that's a terrific story; thanks for sharing! I can somewhat relate to what you said...
My athletic career started at the unlikeliest of places. I was a freshman at the California Institute of Technology, and I had enrolled in a beginning fencing class to satisfy my PE requirement. On the second day of class, our instructor told us: "If you're interested in fencing for the team, show up for practice tonight." And so I did.
Now this is where I differ from Mike and Jordan. My school has an overwhelmingly poor athletic record. Just two years ago, our basketball team snapped a 26-year losing streak. We have more high school valecdictorians and perfect SAT scores on our sports teams than people who had legit experience playing high school sports. Caltech has won more Nobel Prizes in its history than basketball games...see where I'm going here?
As someone who literally walked into the realm of collegiate athletics with no prior experience, I got my ass kicked pretty hard . We were the underdogs, but we still had to fence nationally ranked powerhouses like Princeton, Stanford, Notre Dame, Ohio State, etc. Like the rest of my teammates, I had an overwhelming loss margin. I knew I wasn't an athlete to begin with, and I certainly knew that I couldn't expect to beat all these high-level fencers with less than a year's experience behind me, but defeat after defeat can really wear you down after a while, especially combined with the crushing volume and rigour of academics at the Institute.
I'd be lying if I didn't say that I had serious doubts about my athletic worth and my time investment into this sport. After all, why bother showing up to practice if I'm just going to keep losing (especially when homework would routinely keep me up past 2AM every night)? On the same token, I wondered why our coach, a third-generation Olympian with more national/international titles than I can count, would bother spend time with our ragtag group of nerds. It was just a total comedy of misfits now that I look back...
I mostly lost, but I did win some, believe it or not. Unlike endurance sports, your potential as a fencer isn't determined by genetics alone. It's a complex mix of athleticism, tactics, skill, and sometimes, just plain dumb luck. I've scored wins against UCSD, UCLA, USC, Notre Dame, etc. not because I was "better", but rather, I was on the top of my game while my opponents seriously underestimated me. Sometimes, I just got stupidly lucky my sticking my arm out and hoping for the best . And while I lost all my bouts against Princeton, I made them WORK for it (I think I was only one or two points down every time). I still wasn't very good, but I wasn't about to get pushed around by a bunch of elite, nationally ranked athletes just because I came from a Div. III program. I made my way up to team captain my senior year, but looking back, perhaps I wasn't too far from still being that silly freshman who couldn't lunge properly without toppling over.
And now that I stuck through, I'm very glad I did. I got to enjoy the sport in a way that no Div. I scholarship athlete would ever have: for the sheer fun, experience, and catharsis of it all. I learned some very good and hard-earned lessons in humility, perseverence and sportsmanship that I wouldn't have gotten from anywhere else. Perhaps my greatest takeaway from all this is that I really don't need to "win" or even be good at anything to love doing it.
My academic background has somewhat of a parallel too. While I was admitted into a very prestigious school (like Jordan), I'm really not as intellectually "gifted" as people might assume. Back in grade school, I was placed into the remedial math classes with the "dumb" kids and delinquents. Not exactly easy to deal with, seeing that I was surrounded by a culture with extremely high academic expectations. I still worked my tail off, self-studying entire courses and going out of my way to learn as much as I could. Fast forward to today, and I'm working on my PhD in astrophysics. I had a very hard time getting to where I am now, and I still consider this one of my bigger life achievements thus far.
The journey still isn't over though. I still face challenges in my training and in my studies, and I still get my ass kicked hard, but I love it. Wouldn't trade it for anything else.
Comments
@ Trevor & JW - VERY well put!
Still think the best part in that thread is when Mike G (aka. phabio) swoops in and eloquently gives Rapp a scolding. Not sure why I thought it was so damn funny at the time, but apparently I still do.
But yeah, Jordan tends to get a bit huffy at times because he doesn't always understand that us mortals (i.e. AGers) live in a whole different world than he does. Other than that, I don't think he's a bad guy.
There goes an hour or so that I will never get back.
Well I know we've gone more than a little off topic with this little jaunt down memory lane; however I feel I should point out one final thing.
One of the most common defenses utilized by some of the more vocal EN opponents on ST, specifically Paulo, is the notion of the EN "cult" and the speculation that ST is closely monitored within the haus. That is, RnP beat the wardrum and coerce members into staging planned and organized counterattacks to anyone who dare sully the good name of Endurance Nation.
In reality, this about as coordinated of a discussion as we've ever had about this topic, and even then it's entirely in post mortem. There is no strategizing; there is no plan of attack. What is even more funny is just how many of us are longtime ST lurkers and don't even know each other’s ST usernames. I can't tell you how many times I've corresponded with or read responses from various posters for great lengths of time before I realized they were actually someone I knew from within EN.
That I suppose is sort of the ultimate testament to EN. Despite the fact that our ST presence is so incredibly not-coordinated we don’t even know who each other are most of the time, there is such a consistent and widespread positive response to these topics by both current and former members that people can come up with no other explanation than it’s staged or we’re “brainwashed”.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to get back to my normal operating mode: MUST RECRUIT NEW MEMBERS, MUST RECRUIT NEW MEMBERS, MUST RECRUIT NEW... . . . . . .
I have taken Jordan to task for some of his shots at EN because, frankly, Jordan doesn't live in the same universe as we do. He's a pro with a genetic gift and absolutely doesn't understand how a typical AG'er lives and deals with training. Part of that is maddening since he does have a masters degree in rocket science from Princeton so he's obviously really smart. Part of it is sort of charming that he doesn't realize he's a genetic god and thinks he's a regular dude.
There was also the time someone (who will remain nameless but posted in this thread) openly reveled on ST about Jordan DNF'ing at IMAZ and stated it was karma getting over on Jordan for his EN bashing. Said person apologized and manned up about it later but that was painful. That rubbed many people on ST the wrong way... as it should have. Sorry to bring that back up again but that hurt EN's reputation over there despite RnP going into full spin control to stop the bleeding.
Not to go totally off topic, but I've been following this thread all day, and this has been really interesting. I was unaware of a lot of the history between ST/Rapp and EN. I only joined EN last week, but one of things that really struck me during my trial period where I must have read almost every thread in the forums is the professional and courteous tone in all the discussions, no matter how simple a question is asked (I lurk on ST and quite frankly have been shocked at how negative a tone many posts now seem to take almost immediately.). For a MOPer who just loves the sport and wants to enjoy it and learn about it some more, EN provides a great atmosphere!
And no worries, next time I'll ask a question about power!
Kate -- well said. You highlight one of the things that makes EN special. We treat each other the way adults want to be treated, whether on-line or in person.
Welcome to EN!!! And ask all the power questions you can think of. You'll get a quick and insightful answer from one of the members.
First: Al, sorry if this thread morphed into something else entirely, I'll take responsibility for that.
Tim, thanks for the links, I did peruse both full threads. Call it historical research.
You were right Withrow, there might have been better uses of my time.
However, a big take away for me is that I feel VERY lucky that I found EN before I ever spent anytime on ST. Wow.
Which just reinforces for me what Kate said.
This places rules. It is my home away from home.
I was thinking the same thing in perusing that thread - ie, don't these people get that he has > 1 hr per day to devote to stuff like brick workouts and swimming in the winter? I did see someone post about how the EN philosophy is certainly not written in stone, but is centered around ROI, etc. Was happy to see that at least one person brought that up.
I also saw a couple people in that thread that I've run into on other forum sites - dailymile. beginnertriathlete, etc. Re-reminded me why I stopped wasting time on those sites once I found EN. These people take suggestions directly from someone like Rapp, without recognizing that their own situation is completely different.
What was the oringal topic again? Sorry, I've been too busy creating over 260 Season Plans + screencasts for members and trials in the last two weeks, preparing brand new OS, Bike/Run focus plans, answering emails, PM's, forum posts and generally crushing it and trying to over deliver on the customer service and coaching front to pay much attention to what else is going on out there. Oh, and Patrick has been at a little race in Hawaii with 12 other members, we'll both be at Florida, I'll be at IMAZ, we are organizing our National Rally and series of regional camps, tri rallies on the IMLP and IMWI course, and...and....and
Which is to say we are professional coaches without a second job. This is all. we. do, 24/7. The reason why we don't get in junk measuring contests elsewhere is because we have people who pay us to, you know, actually coach them and stuff.
Patrick and I are in a very good place because EN and YOU have created for all of us a very, very cool place. If I had to wade into the cesspool that are some other triathlon forums on a day to day basis I would have shot myself long ago. I can't tell you what it means to PnI to come into a place where people have real first and last names, speak to each other like real people, call each other by real names, know each others' names, see each other in the real world and, by the way, are identified by their real names. Did I mention real names?
At the end of day, our triathlon forum jujitsu is very strong, though it's fookin' awesome that we rarely have to use it these days. Why? Because we've both been external forum-free for a long time and we have so much fun over here. Soooooo much better to not have that level of negativity in your life. But when I do, my tact now is to simply:
My closing in the infamous Jordan Thread was my smartass way of saying "why don't you come over and talk to my 600 athletes, who are all crushing it and doing some really, really cool things for each other, about how jacked up I am." If done in the real world it would have been closed with firm handshake and a hearty GFY
.
Which is all to say that PnI wake up every day fully aware of how lucky we are. But immediately after that we turn to our full time, 100% on all the time jobs of improving everything we can think of, all the time, without. ever. stopping.
So pumped for 2013!
Not to keep dragging this topic up because it really is much ado about nothing, but I actually got to spend some time with Jordan last night at a TCSD (tri club san diego) event. He did an interview with Bob Babbitt then hung around afterwards where I got to talk to him 1-on-1 for a bit.
Not all too surprisingly (to me at least), he’s a pretty likable guy in person. He’s kind of nerdy/goofy as you might expect from an engineer, and all and all he is more down to earth than you might expect based off his slowtwitch persona. However, listening to his story it is very obvious just how different his life experience has been than that your ‘normal’ person. Quite simply, he has just been extremely fortunate (minus the whole left for dead car accident thing), both in terms of his upbringing (and finicial stature of his parents) and clearly in terms of his genetics. It was also pretty clear he has received rather generous finicial support in pursuing his goals, as well as access to Olympic-caliber coaching for pretty much every sport he has participated in.
It is not to say that he has not or does not work hard, but it was also very clear that he has had near immediate results in nearly every sport he picks up, and I just don’t think his experiences have given him sufficient context to understand just how truly hard ‘normal’ people have to work to even just be MOP sometimes in contrast to the people who just show up to their first event without a clue and end up nearly winning overall.
For better or worse, it was kind of a sobering reminder of just how important a role the genetic lottery plays in all of this. I would very much like to find an underdog story in triathlon, that one case that proves your normal average joe, one of us, can climb his way to the top through the force of sheer will and determination. But honestly, that is just now how this sport works, you were either born with it, or you weren't.
Speaking from those of hearty peasant stock, the genetic outliers are just something you have to accept and deal with. There will always be those things which you work very, very hard at that seem to come near effortlessly to others. And for the freaks of nature, hopefully they can maintain some perspective and remain cognizant of the fact that simply being born a certain way is simply a different kind of personal achievement than one that you've earned entirely on your own.
I'm only jumping in as response to your comment, "I would very much like to find an underdog story in triathlon, that one case that proves your normal average joe, one of us, can climb his way to the top through the force of sheer will and determination." If you haven't read Chrissie's book, pick it up. I was under the assumption that she was simply a genetically gifted freak of nature that was born and raised in the pool and on the track. That couldn't be further from the truth. There is definitely a level of serendipitous genetics there, but when it comes down to it, she's just a normal person who worked her tail off when she realized she had potential. I truly believe she's more surprised than anyone at the successes she's achieved.
We had the opportunity to meet her at a small book signing this past spring and she said something I'll never forget: "I don't aspire to mediocrity." Love that.
@Jess.... Nope your not the only one... I read what he writes and say I wish I could speak or write half that well! He is also one hell of a nice guy I had the pleasure of meeting and racing with at IMMT not to mention absolutely blazingly fast!
He was a terrific, very competitive AG runner and was known for leaving everything he had on the course, and often collapsed at the finish.
In his later years he developed prostate cancer, and it ultimately killed him. As a result of this illness, he continued to run slower and slower and worked his way backwards through the pack. As he made this journey he stated that he was amazed that throughout the pack, no matter how slow their pace, the majority seemed to be working and pressing and competing as hard as they could. Prior to this journey he always thought that the people behind him were sort of lollygagging along and only the faster folks were really competing.
I have had the same experience as I age and slow.
Perhaps Mr. Rapp will make the same discovery as he ages and slows.
Jess, I agree to an extent about Chrissie and likewise picked up her book at a small book signing earlier in the year. Chrissie is definitely in stark contrast to Jordan, and well pretty much everyone else, that someone can have unparalled success and still be incredibly humble and down to earth. Really, it is just impossible not to like Chrissie, even moreso when you meet her in person.
However, while she undoubtedly has worked tremendously hard and faced many of the same fears and doubts that we all do, she is also undenaibly genetically gifted. I think she just does a much better job of keeping it all in perspective than perhaps some others do.
As for myself, I strongly maintain that I'm not actually of any particular above-average intelligence, but boy am I good at faking it
I also love I received college credit for taking a class called Philosophy of Sport.
BUT... what I find most amusing about Slowtwitch is how arrogant and mean-spirited some of them can be when they sit behind the security of their keyboards and screens. I would bet that, when they are confronted face-to-face, they aren't nearly that confident of their opinions. What I like about EN is that (I suspect) that most (heck, even all) of us act the same behind the keyboard and screen as we do in everyday life. I've always tried to follow the idea that you should act the same way over the internet or phone as you would in person, and I think that seems to be the sentiment here as well.
Trevor, first, you've definitely got a way with words. Well said.
Second, I've got to tell a bit of a story here. See, I was a kid who walked on to the Cornell Lightweight Rowing team. We competed against the best teams in the US, and were usually competitive, though never quite medal-contenders. Among my accomplishments were 8th, 7th and 4th in the country in various events at collegiate nationals.
But here's where Jordan and I differ. I was cut from the team my freshman year. Multiple times. Coach just couldn't make me go away, and I kept working my way back. I was the last guy on the roster, wasn't invited to the January training camp, and was the last invite for the March training camp, where I finally earned a seat in a boat for the spring (which I later learned was due to significant kismet). For three more years, I had to fight uphill battles because I wasn't a kid like Jordan (ideal body, pedigree, measurables). I ended up earning the stroke seat of the varsity boat my Junior and Senior year, but not because anything was given to me.
I worked my ass off, for 4 years, to compete with and against people who know success as their right. I'm much more proud than most of them to list the accomplishments above. Frankly, Jordan would look at those results (if he knew the details) and say, "meh, average rower at best." And he might be right, as I was never a national team contender (several of my teammates were).
I will always believe that "Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard", which is an inspiration to the rest of us, and a cautionary tale to the talented. I respect the fact that he seems to be hard-working talent. Just also think his attitude is pretty typical of the national team-type rowers I've known in my life. Not universal, but typical. Probably upsets me more than most because I can say with a great deal of confidence that I wouldn't have had the shots I had at a program like Princeton.
Chrissie is just being humble and playing things up but don't believe that bullshit for a second that she's not a genetically gifted specimen. Yes, she has worked hard. No, you don't win every Ironman race you've ever been in on hard work alone. She's a freak, whether she likes to admit it or not.
And I agree - Trevor, great writing! And Mike, stories like yours are a true inspiration! LOVE LOVE LOVE stories of hard work, persistence, and a "never give up" attitude!
Mike, that's a terrific story; thanks for sharing! I can somewhat relate to what you said...
My athletic career started at the unlikeliest of places. I was a freshman at the California Institute of Technology, and I had enrolled in a beginning fencing class to satisfy my PE requirement. On the second day of class, our instructor told us: "If you're interested in fencing for the team, show up for practice tonight." And so I did.
Now this is where I differ from Mike and Jordan. My school has an overwhelmingly poor athletic record. Just two years ago, our basketball team snapped a 26-year losing streak. We have more high school valecdictorians and perfect SAT scores on our sports teams than people who had legit experience playing high school sports. Caltech has won more Nobel Prizes in its history than basketball games...see where I'm going here?
As someone who literally walked into the realm of collegiate athletics with no prior experience, I got my ass kicked pretty hard
. We were the underdogs, but we still had to fence nationally ranked powerhouses like Princeton, Stanford, Notre Dame, Ohio State, etc. Like the rest of my teammates, I had an overwhelming loss margin. I knew I wasn't an athlete to begin with, and I certainly knew that I couldn't expect to beat all these high-level fencers with less than a year's experience behind me, but defeat after defeat can really wear you down after a while, especially combined with the crushing volume and rigour of academics at the Institute.
I'd be lying if I didn't say that I had serious doubts about my athletic worth and my time investment into this sport. After all, why bother showing up to practice if I'm just going to keep losing (especially when homework would routinely keep me up past 2AM every night)? On the same token, I wondered why our coach, a third-generation Olympian with more national/international titles than I can count, would bother spend time with our ragtag group of nerds. It was just a total comedy of misfits now that I look back...
I mostly lost, but I did win some, believe it or not. Unlike endurance sports, your potential as a fencer isn't determined by genetics alone. It's a complex mix of athleticism, tactics, skill, and sometimes, just plain dumb luck. I've scored wins against UCSD, UCLA, USC, Notre Dame, etc. not because I was "better", but rather, I was on the top of my game while my opponents seriously underestimated me. Sometimes, I just got stupidly lucky my sticking my arm out and hoping for the best
. And while I lost all my bouts against Princeton, I made them WORK for it (I think I was only one or two points down every time). I still wasn't very good, but I wasn't about to get pushed around by a bunch of elite, nationally ranked athletes just because I came from a Div. III program. I made my way up to team captain my senior year, but looking back, perhaps I wasn't too far from still being that silly freshman who couldn't lunge properly without toppling over. 
And now that I stuck through, I'm very glad I did. I got to enjoy the sport in a way that no Div. I scholarship athlete would ever have: for the sheer fun, experience, and catharsis of it all. I learned some very good and hard-earned lessons in humility, perseverence and sportsmanship that I wouldn't have gotten from anywhere else. Perhaps my greatest takeaway from all this is that I really don't need to "win" or even be good at anything to love doing it.
My academic background has somewhat of a parallel too. While I was admitted into a very prestigious school (like Jordan), I'm really not as intellectually "gifted" as people might assume. Back in grade school, I was placed into the remedial math classes with the "dumb" kids and delinquents. Not exactly easy to deal with, seeing that I was surrounded by a culture with extremely high academic expectations. I still worked my tail off, self-studying entire courses and going out of my way to learn as much as I could. Fast forward to today, and I'm working on my PhD in astrophysics. I had a very hard time getting to where I am now, and I still consider this one of my bigger life achievements thus far.
The journey still isn't over though. I still face challenges in my training and in my studies, and I still get my ass kicked hard, but I love it. Wouldn't trade it for anything else.