Swimmers Self Help Group
Alrightie, so I had a question as I begin my adventures back at the pool. With the goal of form, form, form...I had a realization and subsequently a question this morning. 
I realized after some drills when I was trying to relax in the water that when I go to breath, I rotate my whole body and let my head just go with the flow. As such, the hips drop if I don't pay attention and I'm like an anchor again. To try and fix this, I tried something different today. As I lead with one hand I tried to keep the bottom shoulder down to the bottom and just let my chin float up for the one goggle in/one goggle out. TOTALLY different feel than what I was doing and in classic "Oh no I'll drown if I don't breath soon" fashion I found that I typically over rotated with one giant log roll. When I let the head unhinge, it was slower (because I wasn't comfy with it) but it felt like my hips didn't drop my.
My question is this: is that what your supposed to do?? let the head turn instead of the whole body?? and if so...another question. When you breath do you breath first and then the top arm comes up and over or do you try to do it at the same time as the arm is coming back in the stroke???
My suspician is that I might be breathing to early because of the whole not relaxed/rush the breath thing.
Hope that makes sense. Just trying to wrap the brain around what good form actually is other than "horizontal body position, swim in a tube, goggle in/goggle out".
Comments
1. I think you can breathe both ways: I find if I rotate my whole body it is easier to maintain balance. If I just move my head, I spend more time adjusting and regaining balance, but it stills works. I'm a recent convert to rolling. In my case, rolling didn't work as well for me until I adjusted my balance to lean more on my lungs,not force my head down, and use my legs more like a balancing counterweight to all the rotating movements initiated by the shoulders (or, a tail, I suppose) than things that kept correcting my balance. I have a few articles I can send you that I got from my trainer that explains these things way better than I can.
2. Breathing: Sometime last summer, while practicing the one-goggle out drill, I discovered what I call "whale-like" breathing. Instead of concentrating on breathing in, I experimented with concentrating on breathing out. While still looking at the bottom on the pool, I puff out (like a whale) the last 10% of air from my lungs. Head just started automatically turning at the right time to get air. I found I was also way more relaxed because getting air just "happens" this way and I stopped freaking out about getting air
Oo! the articles would be awesome if you didn't mind.
I really enjoyed your swimming question last month and it really got me to thinking about my own.
Makes sense about the whale breathing. I think what I wind up doing most is inhale and then I exhale as I work my way towards the next breath. I never really did understand if you were supposed to hold the breath longer to keep air in the lungs for balance or if you were supposed to get rid of it earlier.
LB - I found the Archer drill was the key to timing my breathing. If you wait until your hand reaches your goggle line before starting your roll, you quickly realize how much time you really have to breathe.
definitely going to play with this when I hit the pool again on Monday. Thanks Beth and Dave. Lots of stuff to think about and play with.
I'm hoping to hook up with a coach at some point but my schedule is just all over the place right now.
I have found that a log roll drill helps with both your body positioning and breathing. I tend to lock my head and breath during the rotation phase of the stroke. Typically when you are close to full extension during the catch your body naturally begins to rotate.
As your body rotates you take your breath until your arm passes your face and the body rotates to the other side.
Go swim has excellent underwater videos. An alternative breathing pattern for open water swimming can be found here.
www.youtube.com/watch
www.goswim.tv/pages/5/videos.html
Good Luck
Hi Leigh -- Articles sent to the email address you have listed in facebook. -b
My belief is that my slow swims, in addition to needing form improvements, is attributable to a slow stroke rate.
Thanks.
not sure if you mean me or not...my regular stroke rate is 44-46 strokes/100 yds.
Hey I just found this thread!
and I know the time/drive/$ is high for swimming ROI but I finally discovered a master's swim program with some real technique help and only been 2 x but they videoed me the first time. 
and so I share with you so hopefully can be more accountable on "correcting". goals: to prevent tendonitis from coming back in right shoulder/arm and of course to be faster! Now is a good time of year because not as many peeps so I can get more advice!!
Overhead: here you can really tell that I cross my arms over midline especially when I breathe! didn't even know I was this horrible!! so now I have to mentally tell myself to "go wide"....
Underwater: Here you can see that the left hand is really catching air hence the trail of bubbles plus my kick is too deep and too wide and is NOT a flutter kick! okay so on the arms I go wide and on the feet I go narrow/shallow!
Side: Here you can see that both goggles are exposed when I breathe and I am allowing too much frontal drag exposing my shoulder! "head on the shoulder" is what I need to remember!
Front: and finally you can see it all, I am on the right! the trail of bubbles, the kick that is way out of my "tube". The coach did say that I had good rotation and body position!
**now when swimming with 2,400 other peeps in a choppy lake or ocean, river, I couldn't be as smooth!!! and in fact having somebody swim OVER me really messes up my "body position" and when I reach to "catch" and get somebody's else's wetsuit, I am leaving more than a trail of bubbles as I think I mighta scratched somebody!!! but I wanna get out of the water FASTER and am determined to get to my bike quicker.... so I go again today!!
me, Leigh and Heather at swim start of IM USA '09. Have fun everybody!!! They were playing "Back in Black"......my swim was 1:28, my fastest IM but I drafted and stayed on the cable 3/4 of the time!!
I'm on it though! making sure I hit the pool 2-3x/week these days.
okay so today my plan is to "play" which means....individ medley time. ready for the funniest part?? I've never actually tried the back stroke or fly. and I'm pretty sure prior to this my version of the breast stroke was closer to a doggie paddle than the actual real way to do it.
as far as the free style stroke goes...I'm always amazed at how changing one or two little things can floor you after 2 laps. used to be able to swim the wrong way forever. I take it as a good sign!
My current project is trying to swim "long" (stretched out with my chin up slightly and pushing my chest down). the cool thing is that I'm starting to be able to feel the difference when I do it versus when I don't. when I breath I'm trying to do a strong exhale before I rotate so that I don't panic and rush the breath. also trying to control my head rotation. and lastly...keep my elbows high versus just slapping my arms into the water.
Marianne, thanks for posting the video and the advice from your coach, I know I learn better by watching other people than just reading text.
Quick question, is it normal to be slower when kicking on your side than kicking face down? It doesn't matter if I am using a kick board, fins, or nothing at all, I am significantly quicker when I am on my chest look down or forward with both arms in front of me. When I roll to my side and have one arm in front and one back, I am a bit slower and it feels like it takes forever to get accross the pool.
I thought it was faster to swim on our side and therefore I figured I should be able to kick as fast on the side as I do flat.
Very good question, Matt. I have no idea what the right answer is, but I zoom when I kick on my side and feel like I'm going nowhere with a flatter kick.
I'm in the same boat as you Matt. on my side, takes forever. I cheat and use the lil fins for that one.
I think I found a catch today. after my IM (aka total entertainment for the lifeguard) my arms must've been pumping good so when I switched back to freestyle and focused on the high elbow it was night and day different. body position felt better, breathing/rotation was easier and man were my arms cooked after 100 meters.
I'll ask my boys if they think it's slower to kick on your side. I feel it is. But then there's this...if you're kicking on your side, you're likely doing it as part of a drill or to think about body position. As triathletes, we're not doing kick sets for speed and power like my swimmer boys do. Ergo, don't worry about how slow or fast you are. Focus on the details of the drill, or why you're kicking on your side. All of that work should be done slow with focus anyway. If you want to work on your kick, go to the deep end and vertical kick. Much more effective. Cross your arms on your chest, or have them by your side, and start with 30" or so. When you want a real challenge--arms overhead.
My master's coach said my layoff this August had me back into all kinds of bad habits--plus a few new ones.
Making the following change, has been HUGE for me, seemingly fixing a lot at once!
Seems that I was breathing at the 1 o'clock position, although it felt like 3 o'clock. Making me breathe into my armpit, has made lots of great body position improvements:
1. Now I am not arching my back, which breaks position
2. My head and neck stay in a nice line, which doesn't break postion
3. I start the pull much easier with my R hand now, allowing me to find the catch rather than just powering through the stroke to no effective end.
I'll tell you, when I breathe correctly, and keep it mindful it feels SO good. It's like I am more "one" with the water--head in position and I just go. I am totally unaware of what's going on around me--pool deck et al--whereas before, nosy me always had half an eye on other things. Feels seriously like I'm much more "one" with the water. May it last.
Took 10" off my 400 today. Just sayin'! 
Linda...and my apologies if this is a dumb question...still waking up.
when you say breath at 1 or 3 o'clock...do you mean that in relation to where your hand is in the cycle or where your head is rotating??
I love this thread. Just catching up know with my reading. My Masters coach has been working on many of my "problem"areas. Keeps me busy
One issue I had was having trouble breathing to my right. So we were trying to figure out why. Seems I rotate my head all over the place even if not taking a breath. So I would be rotated a bit left at my head when right arm reaching forward, so by the time the left arm reached forward and I was to take a breath to right my head, face was not there in time. ( sorry if that is confusing). So I focused on keeping my head in midline and only rotating to breathe. That helped a lot. But what is really helping is gently having my eyes look in direction of the reaching out arm so as not to rotate my head in the opposite direction. that seems to help with the neuromuscular part. Weird I know. I am super tight in the shoulders. Came out of the womb that way
. So I over reach trying to get streamlined and it throws everything off.
OK, just wanted to add one thing I am working on.
Also keeping feet close together. That is a killer( with my thighs and all
)
Good work everyone,
Carrie
Beth, if you still have the articles could you send them to me, thanks, hope you are great!!!, just love your picture!!
I have a quick question....
A few weeks ago Coach P mentioned that all plans (Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced) will come with a intermediate swim program. He also mentioned there would be guidance to to augment the intermediate swim plan and make it an advanced plan.
Has anyone found it? I thought it would be in the swim section of the Train Map but couldn't find it.
Can anyone help?
David, I just stumbled upon your topic, do you have anything you can send on the "Archer Drill", I am really struggling with my breathing right now, the whoie swim in general but if it is easy for you to find I would sure appreciate some help, I am a new member but have had lots of help, I realize this is a dated post on your part but still loved the postings, sounds right up my alley so to speak
Linda