First Matt you are right seat height may have played a big role in your performance even if it is right, just the adaptation. Anyway I look forward to your race reports for this year.
Thanks Todd. I hope I can live up to last year and put on a good show for the team. Knowing people like you are watching me will definitely help!
I double checked everything and re-mesured today. The change in seat height is actually 1.7 cm higher than before, this also moved the seat back by a little under a cm. The fitter added 2 cm of spacers to bring the bars up accordingly and now my drop is 13.5 cm instead of the 14 cm I had, this also brought the bars back a tad so my reach is about the same as it was. I feel good in the new position, but I'm sure like you said it will take a little bit to adapt. I'm going to give it a few weeks before I mess with it.
Michael I may not be the one to argue this point. It seems I read things but don't save them then can't go back and reference them later. Anyway check out the power hack forum from last year. The instruction then was only 60% rest for the 30/30's. And rest however you need for the longer intervals. I know I don't have any proof but all the reading I have done would suggest you are better off with maintaining your work intervals and letting the rest be whatever it needs to be. I do hold the 60% in the 30/30's. I have followed the power hack instructions from last year and rest closer to 50% that is a effort for me where i can make all the hard intervals as written.
@ Matt A - You already know this, but if using the erg file preset method on the CT consistently results in failure on one or more intervals, it might be best to switch to manual ergo and adjust the watts from the handlebar controller. Then at least you could keep the interval going by dropping the power a bit for a short time. Reviewing the file in WKO will then be totally accurate, no fudge factor.
Thanks for the suggestion Al. If I continue to have issues, I am going to switch to either manual ERG or just do the Power Clinic workouts on a flat course and control the files myself.
The pre-programed ERG files worked awesome last year (and I did some VO2 max work with them). But the workouts are a little tougher this year (or I'm weaker) and it might be time for a different approach.
As I said before my 5' max is 290 and my 120% is about 302. I decided to go for the 120% this morning, I thought I was close but sadly I was mistaken. I was a little above the 5' max though. Here are the numbers: 295 299 291 290 This was better then last week but not really close to 120%. I guess I will have to try harder to get there next week. As for recovery, I always started lower then 60%(40-50%) but are right about 60% by 1-1.5' in. I hope I am not missing out by doing that...
I rode the workout on the CT with the ERG file for all elements. Had the rest set at 60%. I made it through first 2 of the 4X3X3’ and knew the next 2 were going to be a problem today. ~1 1/2 minutes into each my, cadence would start to drop, I would get out of the saddle and go for broke. For 15 second they continue at 60 rpm then they slow to a stop. At this point they do not hurt significantly they just won’t turn the pedals. I hit pause for 15 sec then finish the interval.
Like Matt A. this is very frustrating to break the 2 intervals. If I did the manual mode so I can adjust the power level, I am almost certain I would have dropped the watts in the last 30 sec of the second interval that may have helped with the following two. My concern is the temptation to lower the watts when the going gets really tough and I do less work that I could have. I have to think on this issue for a day or two and
The 10X30/30s were a non issue. This was one rough hour work out!
Crap...I did my workout prior to reading much of this. I've never suffered quite like this.
My 5' pVO2 is 345 watts and my 120% is 320. HUGE difference. I did my workouts shooting for 345 and ended up doing an average of 354. Seriously...I DO NOT think I can do it ever again. I had to use images of my kids with a gun to their heads, prayer, cussing....My heart rate on a cold day was 173 bpm at peak. I only saw 172 bpm last year standing and climbing on a 100 degree day 1 time. This was the most I have suffered and wished I had known to shoot for the 320 watt number before hand.
That begs the question then: if we are logging our data post workout and we did our 5' test at a significantly higher number (25 watts more) than our 120% then we will never show 100%...What's the right way to do it Coaches?
Did I screw the pooch with pushing too hard...sure felt like it.
The 10 30/30's were cake after the 4x3' intervals.
I'm definitely an outlier in the numbers game. Showed up on test day thrashed from my weekend and struggled on that 20' interval ( 5' at 237 + 20' at 197 which makes my FTP 187, 110% 205 + 120% 224 by the calculations).
To be honest though, I've only been using that 237 #. My regular FTP is 205 and I've been hitting that on the weekend 2x20's most weekends so that gives me 225 for 110% + 246 for 120%. Those are some big jumps from the calculations but my reasoning is that if I use the other numbers I'm just doing FT work on the Thursday sessions.
So is it cool to use that 237-246 range for my VO2 work and then my OS FTP 110/120/60%'s versus those from the test?? Or should I be doing something different??
Off to to do the Tuesday workout! day behind this week.
Last one was brutal but got it done. Kept all of the recoveries to 60% and dove right into the 30/30's following the last 3'. They were easy by comparison. Used the last 6-7 to just spin easy and flush the legs out versus any z3 work.
EDIT: I redid my numbers as I was sooo braindead when I wrote earlier and I was incorrect.
My pVO2 is 345 watts and 120% is 348 watts so they are very close as expected.
That begs this question then: Do we truly get stronger on the VO2 aspects (I gained 9 watts in 3 weeks) or just learn to suffer better? My HR would indicate that I just tried harder and squeezed out 9 more watts in the 4 intervals. I can tell you from a PE perspective that I felt I just was able to dig into a very dark hole NOT that I'm stronger.
@Michael...good stuff. Enjoy reading it. @ Leigh...you made it seem so easy! Glad to hear it. @ Matts... I have no experience with CT's but it does sound frustrating. FWIW the garmin only holds so much in a workout file and then its back to pen and paper. @ Bryan...looking forward to your feedback on the fitting.
That begs this question then: Do we truly get stronger on the VO2 aspects (I gained 9 watts in 3 weeks) or just learn to suffer better? My HR would indicate that I just tried harder and squeezed out 9 more watts in the 4 intervals. I can tell you from a PE perspective that I felt I just was able to dig into a very dark hole NOT that I'm stronger.
Just an unscientific guess here....but I'm sure that once we're done working our way up to 6x3' at 120%....that one 5' interval will feel like cake and we should be able to blow our last test number away.
That begs this question then: Do we truly get stronger on the VO2 aspects (I gained 9 watts in 3 weeks) or just learn to suffer better? My HR would indicate that I just tried harder and squeezed out 9 more watts in the 4 intervals. I can tell you from a PE perspective that I felt I just was able to dig into a very dark hole NOT that I'm stronger.
Vince, thanks for the kind words. From what I understand, the short answer to your question is an unqualified "maybe". The middle-length, non-academic answer goes something like this:
The number we're training to is most appropriately called Power at VO2peak, pVO2peak, or the highest number we can put out given our current fitness. That stands in contrast to the idea of pVO2max, which is the highest number we can put out, period (based on genetics, muscle pennation angles, etc, basically how you're built). Most of us, being non-pro, have a pVO2peak below our pVO2max, so there is definitely the capacity to improve pVO2peak.
So, how does pVO2peak go up? Two ways. One is improved pumping capacicty of the heart. This tends to come on somewhat rapidly, and more quickly the less trained one is. Probably not the case for most of the folks in the haus, but usually reprepsents the quick hit. The other mechanism is an increase in the density of the capillary beds in the muscles (ie. formation of more capillaries). This takes more time, but is more likely the mechanism by which a well-trained athlete sees gains in pVO2peak after training in a VO2 block.
All of this is the physiology, but the other, almost impossible piece to measure is 'central drive', or how motivated you are. That can fluctuate daily, depending on how well you slept, hydrated, caffeine intake, and whether or not you saw Trent post his numbers yet today . So, you may be right, it could be that you had more central drive today. Or you could be getting fitter. Or both.
Channeling Coach Dick: We only care that you are stronger. How you got here is up to you. But if you aren't you get a kick in (what's left of your XXX at the end of the clinic).
That begs this question then: Do we truly get stronger on the VO2 aspects (I gained 9 watts in 3 weeks) or just learn to suffer better?
Vince, I would say, what's the difference. Maybe "learning to suffer better" IS getting stronger. I'm in the camp that says, just like we probably have mental capacity we don't use, we also have muscle capacity we don't/can't recruit until we teach our neuromuscular system to do it. That process starts with releasing the conscious inhibition we place on our work, and just get in the flow.
@ Michael, Coach P channeling Coach Dick and Al...
It all sounds good but my point is that I can only tolerate the pain I experienced in that last workout so many times in my life before I just can't muster it up. It was painful...saw stars, arms were going numb and tingly, felt faint... I'm looking for some good Eastern European steroids now as I'd just rather be strong than put up with that crap again!
I think it was Salazar that said in an article that the pain he suffered racing someone changed him and he never could race like that again. It was more pain than he could handle and he just couldn't wrap his brain around putting himself through that again. I, in no way, am comparing myself to Alberto but the pain was far worse and different than FTP stuff. FTP pain is more like agony, Type II pain...slower, deep achey stuff. I hate it too. I'm going to get my legs waxed and a pedicure...
what's your watts per kilo? You're a pretty fit dude. You throw some big numbers. It's possible that your pVO2peak is starting to get fairly close to your upper limit VO2max potential (limited by genetics). If that's the case, then you would have to put a serious hurt on yourself to improve it / max it out.
That may not be the case, and I can't speak for you. But there's nothing wrong with that.
There's also nothing wrong with not wanting to go deep down into that well of pain. You run a business, have a life, and do tri because it's something you enjoy. If it's not fun, don't do it. For some crazy reason that I can't explain, I still really enjoy going to that place where I'm seeing spots, and wondering if I'm going to fall off the bike after a hard interval. I can't imagine I'll enjoy it forever.
On the other hand, you've been travelling like crazy, squeezing in tough bike workouts like the ride you did this weekend, and kinda stringing it all together. You could just be a little shot, need an extra day of recovery, and be ready to go back at it.
Only you know the answer to it, but you're asking the right question. You've also got the perfect clinic to explore it, since it's six weeks long (nearly 2 done), and you'll be testing again soon.
My watts/kg is far from what I'd like as my BMI is too high (6' @ 194). 3.3 watts/kg. My bodyfat is coming down post holidays to 13%, which still leaves me 4-5% or 8-10 lbs IF I do not drop any upper body muscle, which will happen with more time in the saddle and running. The lightest I've been in the period of my life was 178 lbs for a day and I was riding 100 miles every Friday and another 100 other days plus running and weights (not eating much more than fat free yogurt and frozen berries either). I'm pretty sure my body doesn't like being lighter than 185 so the only way to get to that magical 4.0 watts/kg is to have and FTP of 335 watts.
My guess is that you are correct with the pVO2 and VO2max being close. It doesn't leave me many options but to lose weight if I want to be a better climber :-).
As for you enjoying that deep, dark place...I get that. I used to enjoy it too when I was younger. I still get a little charge from it knowing that I can push myself to get there on occasion but I realize that it also may not be the healthiest for a 43 y/o father of 4 with 3 stepkids, a business, wife...you get the picture.
I enjoy all of your input and passion for the physiology.
Comments
Thanks Todd. I hope I can live up to last year and put on a good show for the team. Knowing people like you are watching me will definitely help!
I double checked everything and re-mesured today. The change in seat height is actually 1.7 cm higher than before, this also moved the seat back by a little under a cm. The fitter added 2 cm of spacers to bring the bars up accordingly and now my drop is 13.5 cm instead of the 14 cm I had, this also brought the bars back a tad so my reach is about the same as it was. I feel good in the new position, but I'm sure like you said it will take a little bit to adapt. I'm going to give it a few weeks before I mess with it.
Michael I may not be the one to argue this point. It seems I read things but don't save them then can't go back and reference them later. Anyway check out the power hack forum from last year. The instruction then was only 60% rest for the 30/30's. And rest however you need for the longer intervals. I know I don't have any proof but all the reading I have done would suggest you are better off with maintaining your work intervals and letting the rest be whatever it needs to be. I do hold the 60% in the 30/30's. I have followed the power hack instructions from last year and rest closer to 50% that is a effort for me where i can make all the hard intervals as written.
http://www.endurancenation.us/en_fo...php?t=6507
@ Matt A - You already know this, but if using the erg file preset method on the CT consistently results in failure on one or more intervals, it might be best to switch to manual ergo and adjust the watts from the handlebar controller. Then at least you could keep the interval going by dropping the power a bit for a short time. Reviewing the file in WKO will then be totally accurate, no fudge factor.
Thanks for the suggestion Al. If I continue to have issues, I am going to switch to either manual ERG or just do the Power Clinic workouts on a flat course and control the files myself.
The pre-programed ERG files worked awesome last year (and I did some VO2 max work with them). But the workouts are a little tougher this year (or I'm weaker) and it might be time for a different approach.
295
299
291
290
This was better then last week but not really close to 120%. I guess I will have to try harder to get there next week.
As for recovery, I always started lower then 60%(40-50%) but are right about 60% by 1-1.5' in. I hope I am not missing out by doing that...
That was a hard workout!
I rode the workout on the CT with the ERG file for all elements. Had the rest set at 60%. I made it through first 2 of the 4X3X3’ and knew the next 2 were going to be a problem today. ~1 1/2 minutes into each my, cadence would start to drop, I would get out of the saddle and go for broke. For 15 second they continue at 60 rpm then they slow to a stop. At this point they do not hurt significantly they just won’t turn the pedals. I hit pause for 15 sec then finish the interval.
My 5' pVO2 is 345 watts and my 120% is 320. HUGE difference. I did my workouts shooting for 345 and ended up doing an average of 354. Seriously...I DO NOT think I can do it ever again. I had to use images of my kids with a gun to their heads, prayer, cussing....My heart rate on a cold day was 173 bpm at peak. I only saw 172 bpm last year standing and climbing on a 100 degree day 1 time. This was the most I have suffered and wished I had known to shoot for the 320 watt number before hand.
That begs the question then: if we are logging our data post workout and we did our 5' test at a significantly higher number (25 watts more) than our 120% then we will never show 100%...What's the right way to do it Coaches?
Did I screw the pooch with pushing too hard...sure felt like it.
The 10 30/30's were cake after the 4x3' intervals.
I'm feeling a sore throat coming on!
Vince
I'm definitely an outlier in the numbers game. Showed up on test day thrashed from my weekend and struggled on that 20' interval ( 5' at 237 + 20' at 197 which makes my FTP 187, 110% 205 + 120% 224 by the calculations).
To be honest though, I've only been using that 237 #. My regular FTP is 205 and I've been hitting that on the weekend 2x20's most weekends so that gives me 225 for 110% + 246 for 120%. Those are some big jumps from the calculations but my reasoning is that if I use the other numbers I'm just doing FT work on the Thursday sessions.
So is it cool to use that 237-246 range for my VO2 work and then my OS FTP 110/120/60%'s versus those from the test?? Or should I be doing something different??
Off to to do the Tuesday workout! day behind this week.
Okie, Tues workout done.
4x3' as 246, 247, 246, 247.
Last one was brutal but got it done. Kept all of the recoveries to 60% and dove right into the 30/30's following the last 3'. They were easy by comparison. Used the last 6-7 to just spin easy and flush the legs out versus any z3 work.
Entire workout (162 watts):
Duration: 1:00:29
Work: 588 kJ
TSS: 84.1 (intensity factor 0.913)
Norm Power: 187
VI: 1.16
Pw:HR: n/a
Pa:HR: n/a
Distance: 15.362 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 326 162 watts
Cadence: 43 105 73 rpm
Speed: 4.4 20.9 15.3 mph
Pace 2:52 13:36 3:55 min/mi
Crank Torque: 0 458 189 lb-in
My pVO2 is 345 watts and 120% is 348 watts so they are very close as expected.
That begs this question then: Do we truly get stronger on the VO2 aspects (I gained 9 watts in 3 weeks) or just learn to suffer better? My HR would indicate that I just tried harder and squeezed out 9 more watts in the 4 intervals. I can tell you from a PE perspective that I felt I just was able to dig into a very dark hole NOT that I'm stronger.
@Michael...good stuff. Enjoy reading it.
@ Leigh...you made it seem so easy! Glad to hear it.
@ Matts... I have no experience with CT's but it does sound frustrating. FWIW the garmin only holds so much in a workout file and then its back to pen and paper.
@ Bryan...looking forward to your feedback on the fitting.
Just an unscientific guess here....but I'm sure that once we're done working our way up to 6x3' at 120%....that one 5' interval will feel like cake and we should be able to blow our last test number away.
That's what I'm hoping for anyway.
Vince, thanks for the kind words. From what I understand, the short answer to your question is an unqualified "maybe".
The middle-length, non-academic answer goes something like this:
The number we're training to is most appropriately called Power at VO2peak, pVO2peak, or the highest number we can put out given our current fitness. That stands in contrast to the idea of pVO2max, which is the highest number we can put out, period (based on genetics, muscle pennation angles, etc, basically how you're built). Most of us, being non-pro, have a pVO2peak below our pVO2max, so there is definitely the capacity to improve pVO2peak.
So, how does pVO2peak go up? Two ways. One is improved pumping capacicty of the heart. This tends to come on somewhat rapidly, and more quickly the less trained one is. Probably not the case for most of the folks in the haus, but usually reprepsents the quick hit. The other mechanism is an increase in the density of the capillary beds in the muscles (ie. formation of more capillaries). This takes more time, but is more likely the mechanism by which a well-trained athlete sees gains in pVO2peak after training in a VO2 block.
All of this is the physiology, but the other, almost impossible piece to measure is 'central drive', or how motivated you are. That can fluctuate daily, depending on how well you slept, hydrated, caffeine intake, and whether or not you saw Trent post his numbers yet today
. So, you may be right, it could be that you had more central drive today. Or you could be getting fitter. Or both.
Mike
Channeling Coach Dick: We only care that you are stronger. How you got here is up to you.
But if you aren't you get a kick in (what's left of your XXX at the end of the clinic). 
It all sounds good but my point is that I can only tolerate the pain I experienced in that last workout so many times in my life before I just can't muster it up. It was painful...saw stars, arms were going numb and tingly, felt faint... I'm looking for some good Eastern European steroids now as I'd just rather be strong than put up with that crap again!
I think it was Salazar that said in an article that the pain he suffered racing someone changed him and he never could race like that again. It was more pain than he could handle and he just couldn't wrap his brain around putting himself through that again. I, in no way, am comparing myself to Alberto but the pain was far worse and different than FTP stuff. FTP pain is more like agony, Type II pain...slower, deep achey stuff. I hate it too. I'm going to get my legs waxed and a pedicure...
Vince
Vince,
what's your watts per kilo? You're a pretty fit dude. You throw some big numbers. It's possible that your pVO2peak is starting to get fairly close to your upper limit VO2max potential (limited by genetics). If that's the case, then you would have to put a serious hurt on yourself to improve it / max it out.
That may not be the case, and I can't speak for you. But there's nothing wrong with that.
There's also nothing wrong with not wanting to go deep down into that well of pain. You run a business, have a life, and do tri because it's something you enjoy. If it's not fun, don't do it. For some crazy reason that I can't explain, I still really enjoy going to that place where I'm seeing spots, and wondering if I'm going to fall off the bike after a hard interval. I can't imagine I'll enjoy it forever.
On the other hand, you've been travelling like crazy, squeezing in tough bike workouts like the ride you did this weekend, and kinda stringing it all together. You could just be a little shot, need an extra day of recovery, and be ready to go back at it.
Only you know the answer to it, but you're asking the right question. You've also got the perfect clinic to explore it, since it's six weeks long (nearly 2 done), and you'll be testing again soon.
Mike
Michael,
My watts/kg is far from what I'd like as my BMI is too high (6' @ 194). 3.3 watts/kg. My bodyfat is coming down post holidays to 13%, which still leaves me 4-5% or 8-10 lbs IF I do not drop any upper body muscle, which will happen with more time in the saddle and running. The lightest I've been in the period of my life was 178 lbs for a day and I was riding 100 miles every Friday and another 100 other days plus running and weights (not eating much more than fat free yogurt and frozen berries either). I'm pretty sure my body doesn't like being lighter than 185 so the only way to get to that magical 4.0 watts/kg is to have and FTP of 335 watts.
My guess is that you are correct with the pVO2 and VO2max being close. It doesn't leave me many options but to lose weight if I want to be a better climber :-).
As for you enjoying that deep, dark place...I get that. I used to enjoy it too when I was younger. I still get a little charge from it knowing that I can push myself to get there on occasion but I realize that it also may not be the healthiest for a 43 y/o father of 4 with 3 stepkids, a business, wife...you get the picture.
I enjoy all of your input and passion for the physiology.
Vince