Damn the type-e-dos... 3x10 for me tomorrow morning!! Time for the game face:
Oh, and after reading through this thread, I think we might need to petition the coaches for a name change. Instead of Team Turkey, I think we might need to start calling ourselves Team "Holy Crap"!
Tough day for intervals. Legs are definitely getting sluggish as the intensity is climbing. I did the 3 x 12 and could only manage 92% for each of the intervals. Happy to be done!
After some serious caffeination got my 3x12' done holding 102% for each. Or should I say the Computrainer held 102% and I held on for dear life on that 3rd one. Yeah, I saw the post about the Advanced Plan having a typo (only being 2x12') and gave some consideration to only doing 2. However I came to that crossroad and decided to just go for it and follow the path blazed by Carrie, Eric and John. Couldn't let them be the only ones to have all the fun.
Rough for me today. Was sick that last couple of days. Yesterday I had to abandon my run after 1.5 miles, can't remember the last time I could not slog out 4 miles. Anyhow, was unsure of how it would go as I woke up with still a bit of a sore throat. Held on better than expected:
I guess I'm the wuss. I did 2x12(3). Had a strong debate with my mind before I began, loaded the 3x12 file but caved after the second. Hit 1.03 and 1.01. 42 minutes at .897. No time for the run.
Nice work everyone! Nice to see THE STICK is back!
I did the 2x12' as well Matt, no wuss there! 320w Pnorm for both (1.02 IF) and then 10' at .85 for 50 mins at .921. Solid workout and done. Better yet, down to 180 today...just hate being hungry though...
I did the 2x12' as well Matt, no wuss there! 320w Pnorm for both (1.02 IF) and then 10' at .85 for 50 mins at .921. Solid workout and done. Better yet, down to 180 today...just hate being hungry though...
That makes me feel better. It was plenty tough for me. I think I'm still cooked from my ride last Saturday.
John, Tom, I'm with you guys. Got 3 x 12' (3') done this am. Of course, I'm totally "MF'ing" R&P right now, as I find out that it's supposed to be 2x12 after the fact.
Got them done at 240 (103%), 241 (103%), and 232 (99%). Damn, that last interval was a serious HTFU interval. Had to ratchet the gearing up and finish it off at a lower cadence, cuz my spinners were done!
Also learned an important lesson about shoes on the 30' run. Apparently, there's a very narrow window of shoes that leave my hip in a happy places. Today's first 15' minutes were run in shoes that did not fit in that category. Brief pause, stretch, and shoe change, and life was much better. Who knew?!
It just stuns me. Coach says it's a mistake, but people say "screw that, I'll do it my way anyway." Wow. Not that the world will come to an end because of doing 3 intervals instead of 2, but remember, progressive overload and recovery is what gets you stronger. Just because you can (and there is no doubt we all CAN), doesn't always mean you should. Keep that up, and mom says there could be more burn out than progress by week 20.
I see this trend of doing more and more and more creeping into EN than I ever have before. Personally, I don't like it. If that's the way we play here now, I don't wanna. It sure can trip you up downstream. Easy everybody. Plenty of suffering to come.
It just stuns me. Coach says it's a mistake, but people say "screw that I'll do it my way anyway." Wow. Not that the world will come to an end because of doing 3 intervals instead of 2, but remember, progressive overload and recovery is what gets you stronger. Just because you can (and there is no doubt we all CAN), doesn't always mean you should. Keep that up, and mom says there could be more burn out than progress by week 20.
I see this trend of doing more and more and more creeping into EN than I ever have before. Personally, I don't like it, and it sure can trip you up downstream. Easy everybody. Plenty of suffering to come.
I had the same thought, Linda. Completely agree. I've been there, people. I did the Power Hack, or should I say, I over-did the Power Hack, and paid mightily for it. I basically torpedoed my entire season, and it was because I was having fun and did way more work than I was ready for. More is not better. Consistent and moderate progressive overload is the way it's supposed to work. I know the HTFU attitude is fun and motivating in the short-term, but we've got a LOOOONG way to go. Remeber all those admonitions FROM THE COACHES about the early weeks seeming easy, but don't do a lot of extra work because it's gonna get worse later? Smart + hard work = success. Kamikaze = burnout. Let's go with the former, not the latter.
If you did 3 x 12' this week, it's not the end of the world (as Patrick said), but you now need to use your noggin and think about what that means: Do you need to take Wed or Thurs a little easier than the assigned workout? Give yourself a little extra recovery? Will it impact your downstream workouts? Reminder: We win because we are smarter than the other guys, not because we're crazier.
only 2x12' for me. started the ride with the 3x12 in mind and was fading on the second interval so added 15' z3 and headed out on the run. 3rd interval would have sunk me in a hole for tomorrow's run.
All right, lets not get too nutty here. Doing an extra 12 minutes at FTP is not going to cause any problems. The entire point of doing these intervals is to crush yourself. We do them all year long. Soon enough they are going to be 2x20(4) or whatever. There is 40 minutes of FTP work in all of the long rides also. We do 2x20(2) to start off this thing anyhow. 3x12 is only 36 minutes at FTP. It is not going to interfere with a run tomorrow a bike on Thursday and certainly not a race 6 months from now. Deep breaths.
3x10 done. My legs were very heavy starting the first one, but woke up as I went. I scaled back on the intensity, and went with what I tested at (which I think/wish was 10 watts low).
I took the dog on the brick run...and at our greatest distance from the house, he pooped...for the second time. But I had used the last bag 10 earlier in the run. So it was all the way back home, all the way out again, and back home again. Oooooops
And yes, as is her way, Linda's right. But every once in a while it's fun to play. I just hope they don't expect anything from me at work today!!
WOW! I am taken aback a bit. As Chris said, it was just one frigging interval. I wasn't suggesting anything more. If you do it, fine. If not, no biggie. We are here to support and have FUN! Geez.
Good points from Josh and Linda and I agree on the bigger picture, but come on gang let's have some fun once in awhile.
The upside is Josh came out of hiding and piped in. Glad to have you in the group, Josh! Don't be a stranger (lurker) my friend.
WOW! I am taken aback a bit. As Chris said, it was just one frigging interval. I wasn't suggesting anything more. If you do it, fine. If not, no biggie. We are here to support and have FUN! Geez.
Good points from Josh and Linda and I agree on the bigger picture, but come on gang let's have some fun once in awhile.
The upside is Josh came out of hiding and piped in. Glad to have you in the group, Josh! Don't be a stranger (lurker) my friend.
I agree John. One stupid interval does not make or break anything. But the trend to push more than is advised, do more than is necessary, and over-reach into levels of the plan that might be too taxing OVER TIME, is a trend that grown around here in the past few years. It's true and I stand by it, as a way of looking out for us. Now is the time to catch oneself--not at week 12.
We are all big boys and girls, so we sure can do what we want. But sometimes support comes in different forms than "rah-rah grind yourself to a pulp," that's all. Those of us who have been burned by overkill--Josh and I know the downside all too well--there went our fun. It's a REAL risk over time. Just sayin'... Don't want to see that happen to anyone.
And one should feel as free around here to say "cool it," as one should be able to say "crush it till you puke." Both have their place.
Luckily doing extra intervals is only really going to be feasible for a short while. Never remember anyone deciding that 3x20 was a good call. Also, we have a bunch of peeps who did their first ever testing a couple of weeks back and are just learning how to work hard. Once the second round of testing, the huge "gains" and the new zones come about the over achieving will be gone and we can get back to the usual, anyone got any spare mojo thing.
For those of you in that category, the reason why I typed "gains' is that you will often get a huge bump from just learning how to do the test better the second time rather than actually making a big jump in fitness/strength/whatever. You are getting stronger for sure, just not as much as the jumps are going to indicate.
WOW! I am taken aback a bit. As Chris said, it was just one frigging interval. I wasn't suggesting anything more. If you do it, fine. If not, no biggie. We are here to support and have FUN! Geez.
Good points from Josh and Linda and I agree on the bigger picture, but come on gang let's have some fun once in awhile.
The upside is Josh came out of hiding and piped in. Glad to have you in the group, Josh! Don't be a stranger (lurker) my friend.
No worries, mate! And believe me, I'm all about having fun -- that's why I host our Sat group ride every week, even when everyone else is getting hardcore in race season and starts heading off to do their own thing. I just like doing group rides more than riding by myself, and am willing to compromise the precision of the workout in order to do what I think is fun. Among iron-distance folks, I'm a decidedly non-Type-A personality: as we've all heard the coaches say (and I strongly agree), this is all just a game and it's supposed to be fun!
That said, there are A LOT of people on these forums, and A LOT of people who are new to IM and EN, and as one of the veterans (worked with Rich pre-EN and have followed ever since) I feel a certain responsibility to help share my experiences and educate those folks. Is doing one extra workout going to kill you? No, of course not. But there are loads of people who don't know how to change a flat tire, let alone understand the longer-term consequences of going max effort, balls-to-the-wall, on a regular basis. (Yes, we did 2 x 20' (2') a couple weeks ago, but the weeks preceeding and following that week were designed with that in mind.)
My post was aimed at supporting the ENers who don't yet know any better, and will crush themselves because it's what everyone else is doing, or because it's what's written in the plan (even though their common sense might tell them it looks fishy). I'm just trying to watch out for the peeps and give them another perspective to consider.
I'm tempted to draw comparisons to safe vs. unsafe sex (feels good short-term, but could have several undesireable long-term consequences) , but maybe I'll just leave it there for now.
For those of you in that category, the reason why I typed "gains' is that you will often get a huge bump from just learning how to do the test better the second time rather than actually making a big jump in fitness/strength/whatever. You are getting stronger for sure, just not as much as the jumps are going to indicate.
I agree whole heartedly with this. I for sure did not get 15% stronger in 2 weeks. I did however learn that when i took my original Test that I did not fully inderstand the test. This showed up in my zones in the first 2 weeks where I felt My 95-100% zone was not representaive of my fitness (not new to biking just new to triathlons). My bike zones now feel more appropriate and for sure make me work to achieve them.
did 3x10' before I saw Rich's post. Doing the Intermediate plan while I get my mojo back. Good thing is they felt alright....Run's are slowly starting to feel normal too. Good to be back.
I agree with both sides of the argument here....one extra interval at this point is no big deal. Just watch it tomorrow and Thursday and if you feel shelled, back off. But I also agree with Linda....all you new peeps, listen up....don't fall into the trap of thinking you need to do more. The programs are well written and the proof is in the past results. Stick to the plan....you will overload....and you will get faster and stronger.
Not a rag on John because the vets know he knows better and was just having some fun. But heed Linda's warning....she knows what she's talking about.
I did the 3 x 10' just now. I love that John was pushing for everyone to do their 3 sets as well. Guess his MOJO is coming back!! I totally understand the reasoning for not shelling ourselves all the time and especially this early in the OS but i still did it for a couple reasons:
1. I could do it 2. I felt good after my first 2 sets 3. And I never saw Rich post that there was a typo in the INT plan. Maybe he did, but since I didn't see it I would have felt like I was cheating the workout.
Workout felt great except for the two times the bike slipped off the trainer. Yes, two times. Very embarrassed by that. but here are the numbers:
FTP = 223 First 10' = 230 1.033 IF Second 10' = 245 1.09 IF Third 10' = 243 1.088 IF
Don't have total numbers for the whole workout as the falling really threw the whole numbers off.
Geeeze- leave you all alone for a morning and see what happens? What are you all going to do for the next 3 weeks while I'm on Vacation! :-)
John- first, looks like you are getting a little Mojo back- and for that, I'm VERY happy!!!
Everyone else. If you did 3- don't freak out and don't sweat it. Just consider that you might want to be extra good about your recovery this week. If you haven't already done the workout, then with all due respect to John- you should do what R&P have asked you to do. It may be fun to throw down the challenge, but the WSM members would be remissed if we didn't add a bit of a "proceed at your own risk" message for the many many newbies in the haus.
I'll be back in December and starting the OS for real in January (calves willing). I just hope R&P fix the plans for that round!!
While more won't hurt, it doesn't help either. IF you want to do an experiment of one and report back in a few weeks, great! But please..please...don't try to recruit others to go out and do more. This is a FIVE MONTH PLAN that is harder than most of your in season training and getting carried away (more than we ask you to) early on is a recipe for problems down the road. I am all for having fun and crushing myself..but if my 2x12 seems easy and 3x12 seems okay....maybe I am not riding my 2x12 hard enough????
Chris...you just earned serious pain at the LP camp this year...
Chris...you just earned serious pain at the LP camp this year...
I hope it involves Whiteface!
Well since the Murphy's Law stupidity challenge/Epicman are the Thursday and Friday of the camp, I will be up for it. I plan to go up the hill much faster than last year. Considering how long I had to stand there freezing waiting for R and P to make it up for the group picture last summer, maybe I will bring a jacket this year...
Comments
Good call John! There may be a typo in the INT plan, 3 x 10', maybe not, but still going ot do the 3 sets.
Damn the type-e-dos... 3x10 for me tomorrow morning!! Time for the game face:
Oh, and after reading through this thread, I think we might need to petition the coaches for a name change. Instead of Team Turkey, I think we might need to start calling ourselves Team "Holy Crap"!
mike
tom
Entire workout (250 watts):
Duration: 46:48 (47:49)
Work: 701 kJ
TSS: 69.6 (intensity factor 0.944)
Norm Power: 281
VI: 1.13
Pw:HR: n/a
Pa:HR: n/a
Distance: 15.468 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 420 250 watts
Cadence: 30 96 82 rpm
Speed: 2.2 25.4 20.2 mph
Intervals actually got stronger at 298, 299 and 300
Took my baby girl out to the bus stop and did a nice 30 minute run. Whew, pleasantly surprised about getting this one in...
I guess I'm the wuss. I did 2x12(3). Had a strong debate with my mind before I began, loaded the 3x12 file but caved after the second. Hit 1.03 and 1.01. 42 minutes at .897. No time for the run.
Nice work everyone! Nice to see THE STICK is back!
That makes me feel better. It was plenty tough for me. I think I'm still cooked from my ride last Saturday.
I got my 3x10s in but did not quite hit my goals.
97%, 93%, 93% and finsished off the rest at about 78%.
Kinda dissapointed I didnt do a little better. Oh well now im more driven to get them next tuesday!
John, Tom, I'm with you guys. Got 3 x 12' (3') done this am. Of course, I'm totally "MF'ing" R&P right now, as I find out that it's supposed to be 2x12 after the fact.
Got them done at 240 (103%), 241 (103%), and 232 (99%). Damn, that last interval was a serious HTFU interval. Had to ratchet the gearing up and finish it off at a lower cadence, cuz my spinners were done!
Also learned an important lesson about shoes on the 30' run. Apparently, there's a very narrow window of shoes that leave my hip in a happy places. Today's first 15' minutes were run in shoes that did not fit in that category. Brief pause, stretch, and shoe change, and life was much better. Who knew?!
Mike
It just stuns me. Coach says it's a mistake, but people say "screw that, I'll do it my way anyway." Wow. Not that the world will come to an end because of doing 3 intervals instead of 2, but remember, progressive overload and recovery is what gets you stronger. Just because you can (and there is no doubt we all CAN), doesn't always mean you should. Keep that up, and mom says there could be more burn out than progress by week 20.
I see this trend of doing more and more and more creeping into EN than I ever have before. Personally, I don't like it. If that's the way we play here now, I don't wanna. It sure can trip you up downstream. Easy everybody. Plenty of suffering to come.
Just for the record I had NO CLUE about the typo thing and would have gladly "only" done 2x12 this morning.
I had the same thought, Linda. Completely agree. I've been there, people. I did the Power Hack, or should I say, I over-did the Power Hack, and paid mightily for it. I basically torpedoed my entire season, and it was because I was having fun and did way more work than I was ready for. More is not better. Consistent and moderate progressive overload is the way it's supposed to work. I know the HTFU attitude is fun and motivating in the short-term, but we've got a LOOOONG way to go. Remeber all those admonitions FROM THE COACHES about the early weeks seeming easy, but don't do a lot of extra work because it's gonna get worse later? Smart + hard work = success. Kamikaze = burnout. Let's go with the former, not the latter.
If you did 3 x 12' this week, it's not the end of the world (as Patrick said), but you now need to use your noggin and think about what that means: Do you need to take Wed or Thurs a little easier than the assigned workout? Give yourself a little extra recovery? Will it impact your downstream workouts? Reminder: We win because we are smarter than the other guys, not because we're crazier.
only 2x12' for me. started the ride with the 3x12 in mind and was fading on the second interval so added 15' z3 and headed out on the run. 3rd interval would have sunk me in a hole for tomorrow's run.
#1 202 + #2 198
Entire workout (174 watts):
Duration: 1:00:24
Work: 630 kJ
TSS: 85.6 (intensity factor 0.922)
Norm Power: 184
VI: 1.06
Pw:HR: n/a
Pa:HR: n/a
Distance: 16.154 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 273 174 watts
Cadence: 42 111 74 rpm
Speed: 3.3 19.4 16.1 mph
Pace 3:06 18:13 3:43 min/mi
Crank Torque: 0 290 196 lb-in
All right, lets not get too nutty here. Doing an extra 12 minutes at FTP is not going to cause any problems. The entire point of doing these intervals is to crush yourself. We do them all year long. Soon enough they are going to be 2x20(4) or whatever. There is 40 minutes of FTP work in all of the long rides also. We do 2x20(2) to start off this thing anyhow. 3x12 is only 36 minutes at FTP. It is not going to interfere with a run tomorrow a bike on Thursday and certainly not a race 6 months from now. Deep breaths.
Oh and P and Matt, you are both wuss's
Ditto. Especially when I felt totally gassed in the last 2 minutes of #2!
I took the dog on the brick run...and at our greatest distance from the house, he pooped...for the second time. But I had used the last bag 10 earlier in the run. So it was all the way back home, all the way out again, and back home again. Oooooops
And yes, as is her way, Linda's right. But every once in a while it's fun to play. I just hope they don't expect anything from me at work today!!
Mike
WOW! I am taken aback a bit. As Chris said, it was just one frigging interval. I wasn't suggesting anything more. If you do it, fine. If not, no biggie. We are here to support and have FUN! Geez.
Good points from Josh and Linda and I agree on the bigger picture, but come on gang let's have some fun once in awhile.
The upside is Josh came out of hiding and piped in. Glad to have you in the group, Josh!
Don't be a stranger (lurker) my friend.
I agree John. One stupid interval does not make or break anything. But the trend to push more than is advised, do more than is necessary, and over-reach into levels of the plan that might be too taxing OVER TIME, is a trend that grown around here in the past few years. It's true and I stand by it, as a way of looking out for us. Now is the time to catch oneself--not at week 12.
We are all big boys and girls, so we sure can do what we want. But sometimes support comes in different forms than "rah-rah grind yourself to a pulp," that's all. Those of us who have been burned by overkill--Josh and I know the downside all too well--there went our fun. It's a REAL risk over time. Just sayin'... Don't want to see that happen to anyone.
And one should feel as free around here to say "cool it," as one should be able to say "crush it till you puke." Both have their place.
Your friend,
LP
Linda,
Luckily doing extra intervals is only really going to be feasible for a short while. Never remember anyone deciding that 3x20 was a good call. Also, we have a bunch of peeps who did their first ever testing a couple of weeks back and are just learning how to work hard. Once the second round of testing, the huge "gains" and the new zones come about the over achieving will be gone and we can get back to the usual, anyone got any spare mojo thing.
For those of you in that category, the reason why I typed "gains' is that you will often get a huge bump from just learning how to do the test better the second time rather than actually making a big jump in fitness/strength/whatever. You are getting stronger for sure, just not as much as the jumps are going to indicate.
No worries, mate! And believe me, I'm all about having fun -- that's why I host our Sat group ride every week, even when everyone else is getting hardcore in race season and starts heading off to do their own thing. I just like doing group rides more than riding by myself, and am willing to compromise the precision of the workout in order to do what I think is fun. Among iron-distance folks, I'm a decidedly non-Type-A personality: as we've all heard the coaches say (and I strongly agree), this is all just a game and it's supposed to be fun!
That said, there are A LOT of people on these forums, and A LOT of people who are new to IM and EN, and as one of the veterans (worked with Rich pre-EN and have followed ever since) I feel a certain responsibility to help share my experiences and educate those folks. Is doing one extra workout going to kill you? No, of course not. But there are loads of people who don't know how to change a flat tire, let alone understand the longer-term consequences of going max effort, balls-to-the-wall, on a regular basis. (Yes, we did 2 x 20' (2') a couple weeks ago, but the weeks preceeding and following that week were designed with that in mind.)
My post was aimed at supporting the ENers who don't yet know any better, and will crush themselves because it's what everyone else is doing, or because it's what's written in the plan (even though their common sense might tell them it looks fishy). I'm just trying to watch out for the peeps and give them another perspective to consider.
I'm tempted to draw comparisons to safe vs. unsafe sex (feels good short-term, but could have several undesireable long-term consequences) , but maybe I'll just leave it there for now.
I agree with both sides of the argument here....one extra interval at this point is no big deal. Just watch it tomorrow and Thursday and if you feel shelled, back off. But I also agree with Linda....all you new peeps, listen up....don't fall into the trap of thinking you need to do more. The programs are well written and the proof is in the past results. Stick to the plan....you will overload....and you will get faster and stronger.
Not a rag on John because the vets know he knows better and was just having some fun. But heed Linda's warning....she knows what she's talking about.
And yes as a new person I appreciate this! I am a very hard charging person and many times do need someone to speak up and tell me this! So thank you
1. I could do it
2. I felt good after my first 2 sets
3. And I never saw Rich post that there was a typo in the INT plan. Maybe he did, but since I didn't see it I would have felt like I was cheating the workout.
Workout felt great except for the two times the bike slipped off the trainer. Yes, two times. Very embarrassed by that. but here are the numbers:
FTP = 223
First 10' = 230 1.033 IF
Second 10' = 245 1.09 IF
Third 10' = 243 1.088 IF
Don't have total numbers for the whole workout as the falling really threw the whole numbers off.
John- first, looks like you are getting a little Mojo back- and for that, I'm VERY happy!!!
Everyone else. If you did 3- don't freak out and don't sweat it. Just consider that you might want to be extra good about your recovery this week. If you haven't already done the workout, then with all due respect to John- you should do what R&P have asked you to do. It may be fun to throw down the challenge, but the WSM members would be remissed if we didn't add a bit of a "proceed at your own risk" message for the many many newbies in the haus.
I'll be back in December and starting the OS for real in January (calves willing). I just hope R&P fix the plans for that round!!
While more won't hurt, it doesn't help either. IF you want to do an experiment of one and report back in a few weeks, great! But please..please...don't try to recruit others to go out and do more. This is a FIVE MONTH PLAN that is harder than most of your in season training and getting carried away (more than we ask you to) early on is a recipe for problems down the road. I am all for having fun and crushing myself..but if my 2x12 seems easy and 3x12 seems okay....maybe I am not riding my 2x12 hard enough????
Chris...you just earned serious pain at the LP camp this year...
P
I hope it involves Whiteface!