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IM Build Training vs. VR
Admins feel free to move this to a better forum as I wasn't sure where to put it.
As I build fitness and follow the IM training plan on my way to IMLP, a few thoughts/questions came to mind regarding training. I would appreciate everyone's thoughts as this surely will apply to more of us as time goes on.
I chose for my second IM to race IMLP for a few reasons. First, it is a key race and I like being a part of the team and the MOJO that goes with it. Second, I wanted something with a little more challenge than my first IMAZ and a different venue.
What didn't occur to me would be so important about choosing a race, was the time of year I have to train to race IMLP. With IMLP scheduled for the end of July, it means that training here in AZ puts my longer training/RR in the 110 degree heat. This brings me to the discussion points that I would like feedback on.
With Zwift and others becoming more predominant, I can get better quality work done without going into the heat. The problem is, spending six hours on the trainer is not as comfortable as "real" riding due to the lack of real feel and movement.
As I build fitness and follow the IM training plan on my way to IMLP, a few thoughts/questions came to mind regarding training. I would appreciate everyone's thoughts as this surely will apply to more of us as time goes on.
I chose for my second IM to race IMLP for a few reasons. First, it is a key race and I like being a part of the team and the MOJO that goes with it. Second, I wanted something with a little more challenge than my first IMAZ and a different venue.
What didn't occur to me would be so important about choosing a race, was the time of year I have to train to race IMLP. With IMLP scheduled for the end of July, it means that training here in AZ puts my longer training/RR in the 110 degree heat. This brings me to the discussion points that I would like feedback on.
With Zwift and others becoming more predominant, I can get better quality work done without going into the heat. The problem is, spending six hours on the trainer is not as comfortable as "real" riding due to the lack of real feel and movement.
- How many of you have done all of your training indoors, right up to your A race? Would you do it again? Best tips/advice.
- Using a smart trainer does not give me real climbing, so gearing selection is of concern. ERG mode does not or may not be true to reality regarding hill climbing. How did you adjust for that? AZ is flat, but I do some small hills on my route.
- Should I do RR early in the morning and get 3 hours of trainer in and then at dawn knock out 3 more hours of real outdoors?
- Any other info you would share from experience.
0
Comments
reverse (too cold rather than too hot). From Sept, 2017 didn't ride
outside till 3 days prior when I got to Florida. Bike leg turned out ok,
so I think it was tougher to prepare mentally than physically. Two days
prior the race I did recon the course, and rode the climbs. And a few
months prior, I got the course downloaded and did simulated ride on
Computrainer ... though not close to real-life, it did help me at least
know what to expect ... and when.
On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 8:32 PM Gary Lewis <
teamenforums+d24760-s6029573@gmail.com> wrote:
> [image: Endurance Nation Community]
>
> ------------------------------
> Gary Lewis started a new discussion: IM Build Training vs. VR
>
> Admins feel free to move this to a better forum as I wasn't sure where to
> put it.
>
> As I build fitness and follow the IM training plan on my way to IMLP, a
> few thoughts/questions came to mind regarding training. I would appreciate
> everyone's thoughts as this surely will apply to more of us as time goes on.
>
> I chose for my second IM to race IMLP for a few reasons. First, it is a
> key race and I like being a part of the team and the MOJO that goes with
> it. Second, I wanted something with a little more challenge than my first
> IMAZ and a different venue.
>
> What didn't occur to me would be so important about choosing a race, was
> the time of year I have to train to race IMLP. With IMLP scheduled for the
> end of July, it means that training here in AZ puts my longer training/RR
> in the 110 degree heat. This brings me to the discussion points that I
> would like feedback on.
>
> With Zwift and others becoming more predominant, I can get better quality
> work done without going into the heat. The problem is, spending six hours
> on the trainer is not as comfortable as "real" riding due to the lack of
> real feel and movement.
> * How many of you have done all of your training indoors, right up to your
> A race? Would you do it again? Best tips/advice.
> * Using a smart trainer does not give me real climbing, so gearing
> selection is of concern. ERG mode does not or may not be true to reality
> regarding hill climbing. How did you adjust for that? AZ is flat, but I
> do some small hills on my route.
> * Should I do RR early in the morning and get 3 hours of trainer in and
> then at dawn knock out 3 more hours of real outdoors?
> * Any other info you would share from experience.
>
> --
> Reply to this email directly or follow the link below to check it out:
>
> https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/24760/im-build-training-vs-vr
> Check it out
>
>
Numbers/data don't lie: .73 IF, 1.05 V.I. for 112 miles on 4,000 ft elevation gain = 5:39 bike split. Zwift works and keeps you safe.
SS
@Shaughn Simmons - just curious, what were your 2 longest rides on Zwift in your IMSR build?
3 weeks out I did a 3 day back to back to back 5 hour, 4.5 hour, & 4 hour rides on Zwift.
4 and 5 weeks out there were 4.5 - 5 hour rides on those weekends,,,,,,
"Regarding climbing indoors vs outdoors - not an issue at all. When you are going up your power to weight is the predominant factor. Going down is another story. There is no substitute for actual practice when it comes to technical and/or high speed descending."
One of my issues is w/kg. My FTP is 215 on trainer (which i think is 7 watts higher than cranks) and I'm currently 170 (hoping to go lower) = 2.7w/kg. I have a 50/34 in front and 11-28 rear. Concerned how the climbing is going to affect the race strategy on the hilly course. Am I going to feel it more, so will I need to bak down the IF? Since I'm at the slower end, my TSS could be over 300, but I don't want to spend 7 hours on the bike either. I can Zwift but not sure how that will relate to gearing in the real world. Zwift is affected by the ERG settings so "Hill Feel" and whether it becomes a "could" ride are my concerns. Am I just worrying too much about the hilly course?
I'm not as concerned about the technical riding of the bike or handling of the hills. I'm sure the Keene descent will be scary, but I can always use the brakes. In Moab my speed got above 40MPH a few times descending, which didn't bother me but there were no unpredictable riders in front of me.
In AZ we don't get cooler temps in the summer. Even when I trained for IMAZ during Sept and run at 3AM it was still 95 outside, just not sunny. Its seems your solution was to drive as long as necessary to get to cool weather, but I don't think my schedule will allow that.
Did you do anything different with your brick runs schedule wise?
@Shaughn Simmons as a strong cyclist, how did you execute the long rides. Did you Zwift and try to keep a low VI as if you were riding an IM while going up and down virtual hills? When you rode the real course, did the grade and the gearing seem the same or was there a disconnect somewhere?
I feel like I may have a hole in the 11-28 and if I go to 32, the cadence hole could get bigger at target power. But if the "calibration" is off, I may be fine. Also, how much time did you spend in 32? Was it enough to justify the hole. Suggestions on how to determine that.
I find 200 watts on Zwift (using PT pedals) to be 200 watts outside using the same pedals and the speed 200 watts gets me on a 6% grade to be equal on Zwift as well as outside.
I find Zwift to be an enabler vs an inhibitor.
2.7 w/kg FTP is a good place to start. Those with higher FTP than those with lower FTPs will have an easier time controlling spikes and driving lower VI over the course of an IM bike leg resulting in a more efficient ride overall.
Zwift is a great place to raise FTP when combined with improving body composition. Zwift allows you to consistently get in more saddle time with a busy schedule which, alone will raise FTP. Racing 2X a week will raise that FTP. Following the specific interval work in the plan during the early stages will also raise the FTP. Once you get within 6-7 weeks, you'll have to use what you have and begin to apply volume. Here is how I execute long rides using Zwift on the trainer:
1) I try not to comprehend 5 hours but focus on 1 to 1.5 hours at a time for these long rides. What do I need to do to get through the next 60 - 90 minutes where I earn a:
2) Break - I take stretch breaks after 60 - 90 minutes and use the bathroom if needed. 5 minutes but do not linger too long. Refresh bottles if needed.
3) I try to get my self to the 3rd hour before I introduce caffeine if possible. It becomes a much needed reward and boost at that point.
4) Once you make it into 3+ hours, pat yourself on the back and use this success to push forward to hour 4.
5) I normally follow the protocol in the plan as written and use various Zwift routes with Laptop patched into big screen TV as distraction. Make sure you use a fan.
6) Get as much time aero as possible. 10 - 15' then 5 min break sitting up, repeat. Stand up on pedals every 25-30 min to change position and muscle groups.
7)Distance covered is not as important as time spent and TSS(work) performed. 7)Set an overall TSS goal for the ride and strive to hit that goal based on an accurate FTP.
Good luck moving forward!
Great points on how to execute. I have been trying to stay aero (which for me is comfortable) the whole time. I haven't been changing position or taking breaks. I think that is what makes it so difficult and uncomfortable.
Do you think caffeine makes that much difference. I usually start my ride with a cup of coffee while I warm up. I'm pretty caffeine tolerant. I've seen others go away from caffeine and then use it on race day.
Did you add in additional Zwift racing on top of your build plan, or just use them as equal TSS rides?
Really good questions. Keep them coming.
Smart Trainer Power and PT power is probably no more than a 3 - 5% difference....so you should be able to adjust fairly easily doing the math.
Try going into the wko without the caffeine up front then using later in the wko when you begin to lose focus or build up fatigue. See what you think.
Studies show that eliminating caffeine 3-4 days before race then introducing during the race to have beneficial impacts. Last week I did not introduce any caffeine until about mile 80 of the bike and it really helped me to stay focused and negative split the back half of the bike ride on the power profile just when many of my competitors where beginning to lose focus. During an IM, it is about mile 80 where a lot of free speed can be given up due to fatigue, lack of focus. Consider this.
The build plan has a certain amount of Z4 work each week. I use the races to accumulate that Z4 work. Be cautious about exceeding the weekly plan Z4 time guidance as this can then eat into your ability to drive quality run wkos.....balance it smartly.
As to the larger gaps in the wider cassette - the advantage of "faster" cadence @ 32 vs 28 to me outweighs the risks of needing to vary cadence do to the gaps.
While in Mallorca last month, I spent the first four days with a 28 cassette, the last two with a 32. Of course, there was a lot of climbing involved. For climbs longer than about 5-6 minutes, and greater than about 6%, I used the 32. For shorter climbs, I found I could stay in the big ring even up to 5-6%. But I much preferred the options the larger cog gave me.
Re: Zwift/Long rides...one little trick is using the terrain to take breaks. E.G., letting my avatar coast down Alpe d'Zwift takes at least five minutes, without losing any in-game riding time. I can get off the bike, go pee, replenish bottles, stretch, get back on the bike, and be 6-7 kilometers down the hill, still generating miles in the game (but not on my garmin, which is recording what my pedals or the trainer is doing, which is zilch). Other hills give similar options for shorter times.
Regarding your question about brick runs: I've done so many over the years I don't do them very often anymore unless I'm coming off the bike in the evening. If I start a long ride in the morning and finish in the heat, then that run isn't going to happen until hours later when the sun is almost down. I.e., I think the ROI of a brick run in the middle of our summer heat & humidity is NEGATIVE.
"As to the larger gaps in the wider cassette - the advantage of "faster" cadence @ 32 vs 28 to me outweighs the risks of needing to vary cadence do to the gaps." I agree. That is why I bought the 32, just forgot it was there since most of the time is on the trainer cassette. If I get a chance, I may compare the different cog ratios and put together a hybrid for the race if I determine it will help.
@Paul Hough I agree on the brick runs, but what did you do for race rehearsals? When I did my first/last IM it was too hot to run after, so I skipped it. I'm trying to put in a better effort this time, without jeopardizing anything. It may be more beneficial in the long term to skip the run.
One key for me was knowing that I was going to have to put in a decent hour of work from 2.5-3.5 hours and 6+ to 7+ hours on the climbs in to town for the LP course. There are opportunities to take advantage of down hills on this section but it's up, up, up to LP. For me it was key to focus in on the long rides and knowing to push at this 2.5 mark of training for 20-60 minutes and visualizing the climb back in. I utilized the 2X20's in the plan and even extended it to 2X30's for this segment.
Work on the weight as much as you can without compromising training and use all the gears you can and you will be fine with decent to good execution. I've done LP at 225 and 235 lbs with around a 240 and 235 FTP (sorry data's on my other computer which I did in to) so 2.2-2.35 w/kg at best. I've also done LP 4 times and rode the course a couple others so know the terrain. I've also got 3 7hour+ bike times on that course and one DNF due to bad nutrition. All this to say it can be done.
At 2.7 W/kg the 32 would be a useful gear to have, just work on cadence variations knowing you won't be able to hit the RPM you like all the time.
My 2015 race report is here:
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/23558/gordon-cherwoniaks-2017-im-lake-placid-race-report-very-long#latest
My keys
- Don't push for a time goal if you are out there for 7 hours so be it. You don't need to go this long in training just get in the prescribed time.
- If you don't have the w/kg and the gearing is not enough drop the IF and don't look at the speed or RPM's. Both will be low at times. One year I was undertrained on the distance and believe I did the race at .64.
- the TSS will be higher and could be over 300 if you are out there for a long time it is what it is. Note that it does not have to be super high as my n-1 race report shows 303 TSS with lots of time above IM effort.
- at 2.7w/kg you will be better off then I was but realize you will be going slow up some of the hill and don't push up the watts go with a lower cadence and don't spike the watts. From memory I remember seeing 5/6/7 MPH but did not care I just did not want to see that high wattage 200+ but 210+ for sure. With a 32 and a better w/kg some even more of this should be eliminated.
- Look at my race report I have 1 hour 48 minutes of my 7 hour 50 minute bike ride above .75 IF but the key was not going above FTP and limiting the larger portion of this time below .85.
- In training this meant working the plan and getting in the .75 and ABP (.85) rides were key to knowing I could put in this work. This was particularly important later in training rides but don't dig yourself in to a hole.
- I also had a high VI due to my weight and gearing and also taking advantage of the Keene descent to coast once I got my speed up, particularly on the 2nd lap.
- For me at a 7 hour + bike ride the bike course starts at the Jay to Wilmington climb on the 2nd lap, around mile 90 but even on lap one I took it easy as I knew my IF was going to be .80-85 for that section. Keep your power constant for the 1st part of each lap on the course as you don't want to give up time just realize that you maybe pushing a little harder than you want in the back half of each lap and that climb out of town. If you think you are going to go around 6:30-7 your could bump up the IF from my low end but still .66-68 will be getting your TSS up there.
- Both times as you make that turn to the climb in to Lake Placid remind your self to execute over the top and get up to speed on the down hills as there's plenty of free speed to have even with in the designated watts. This was much more difficult on lap 2.
- You can still run a good race with a 300+ TSS but again manage the effort. Set your self up for the run with good bike execution.