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How To Structure Your Ultra Season Roadmap

2019 will be my third year where the primary focus will be on ultramarathons. I've been giving thought to structuring my season roadmap based on what I've learned through research and self-experimentation.

Philosophic Approaches:

There is no EN for ultrarunning that I've found. We take for granted that Rich and @Coach Patrick distilled triathlon down into the keys for success.

There are basically three approaches to the ultra season roadmap:

  1. Run a Shitload, or Unstructured. I've made friends with a bunch of other ultrarunners through my adventures. This is probably what at least half of ultrarunners do, not unlike triathletes. They love running and just run a shitload. They do the same runs over and over but don't appear to improve, again not unlike many triathletes. If you just love trail running, then this is a fun approach.
  2. Mafetone Approach, or New School EN. This is popular in most of the Ultrarunning books such as Relentless Forward Progress and podcasts such as Trail Runner Nation. The books don't usually self-identify as using Mafetone, but it's essentially what they're advocating. The idea is to do all of your running at or below your MAF heart rate to build a giant aerobic engine. This is the approach I largely adopted in 2017 preparing for the Leadman.
  3. Reverse Periodization, or Old School EN. This approach doesn't get much press in the ultra scene. It is best captured by Jason Koop's Training Essentials for Ultrarunning. His approach is do the least specific things farthest away from your race. This is the approach I took this year.

I don't have much to say about approach 1, so let's dig into 2 and 3.

Mafetone Approach, or New School EN:

This approach actually came from triathlons, created by Phill Mafetone, who coached Mark Allen. The key idea is to do almost all of your training at or below your MAF HR. Your MAF HR is 180 minus your age with some adjustment factors, such as whether you've been sick or have been successfully training for a long time. For me this worked out to training below 142. Mafetone is a regular on podcasts like Trail Runner Nation, so look for one of those if you want to hear it directly from him. In a lot of ways, the aligns with the New School EN approach of focusing on run durability.

When I took this approach in 2017 getting ready for the Leadman (a mix of MTBing and trail running), I kept all my training runs at MAF. I'd allow my HR to creep up to 150 on climbs, but would switch to walking as soon as it hit 150. I'd allow some intensity on the bike, especially on weekday rides on my Kickr. I did my long rides at MAF.

Strengths:

  1. You will build a massive aerobic engine. Yes, it works. This is key to ultrarunning. It's routine to see ultrarunners fly by early in a race, only to pass them again towards the end while they're shuffling along. In my view, raw endurance is one of the two primary keys to success in ultras. I like to say specificity is king in ultras, so aerobic endurance is probably queen.
  2. Lower risk of injury. Some of the runs seemed frustratingly easy at first. After a couple months I was able to run up mountains at MAF that I previously had to hike up. The MAF HR essential acts as a governor to make sure you don't overdue it.

Weakness:

There is really only one: it can be boring as hell, especially at first. Coming from doing a lot of high intensity, it was frustrating to slowly jog or even walk to keep under MAF HR.

Recommendation:

If you're coming from a background as a cyclist or triathlete (let's be honest, most triathletes hate running), then I'd recommend taking this approach on your first ultra-focused season. This will align with the New School EN approach, with a couple modifications:

  1. Follow the EN run durability program in the outseason but modify it to keep your HR under MAF instead of using pace. It's not critical that your runs are on trails. Run on trails when you can for fun during the week. Try to do your long run on trails, if weather permits. This is nice for those of us who get a real winter to be able to do a lot of running on the treadmill.
  2. Again specificity is king, so do at least 50% of your volume on the trails 2-3 months out from your A race. This terrain should be as similar to your A race as possible. This is usually where books like Relentless Forward Progress come into play with their training plans. Below is an example for that book. Bryon Powell does allow for some speedwork, saying it doesn’t have much value but you can do it if you enjoy it. I also saw @Coach Patrick created a 50 mile training plan. I haven't used it, but it looks like a solid template. I'd just change out all the pace targets for MAF HR. I fundamentally don’t think you should use pace targets as you get closer to your A race in ultras, unless you’re doing one of the rare road ultras. Pace is just an output in trail running, just like speed on the bike.

Reverse Periodization, or Old School EN:

Jason Koop outlines three key principles:

1. Develop the physiology that is most specific to the event close to the event, and develop the least specific furthest away.

2. At some point in the season, incorporate each of the three critical works. He calls these Steady State Runs, Tempo Runs (threshold runs), and Interval Runs (VO2 runs).

3. Work strengths closer to the race and weakness farther away. 

Here is an example of how to structure the season roadmap using Koop’s approach where the runner needed to improve his speed. This is a lot like the Old School EN approach for running that still is used for cycling.

Strengths:

1.     Creates variety in your training with periodized blocks. Like I said, MAF training gets boring. This allows you to change things up.

2.     Drives improvement. For example, most ultrarunners don’t do speedwork to get faster.

3.     Leverage triathlon training to be a better ultrarunner. This year I did Oceanside 70.3 and Ironman Santa Rosa as early season triathlons so I could focus on added intensity far away from Wasatch 100.

Weakness:

1.     This risks injury if you haven’t had several years of consistent running

2.     There are no standard plans for this approach that I’ve found, so you’ll have to create your own or work with a coach to do so. Koop’s book just gives a general outline.

Recommendation:

My take is that you should have had at least one full season free of injury to take this approach. If you are plagued by run injuries, then focus on durability with the Mafetone approach.

In terms of structuring your season:

1.     The outseason would be like one of the Old School EN outseason plans. The way I modified this was to set an early season half marathon in March. Then I replaced two of the durability runs with quality Tempo and/or Interval Runs. I used the Run Less, Run Faster app as an easy source of workouts. It gives you a template for half and full marathons with specific paces for the training runs.

2.     Set early season races that favor speed to encourage more training intensity. This would be half and full marathons, non-technical 50k ultras, and 70.3 Ironman events. Based on my experience, a full Ironman started getting more into the lower intensity training. While fun, I’d suggest sticking to shorter events.

3.     Same as above, specificity is king for ultras. The transition will be more painful than if you’ve been grinding it out on the trails all years. I was super sore the first month I switched from higher intensity triathlon training to training for a mountainous ultra. It took time to build up strength for the long climbs and resilience for the eccentric motion on the downhills.

One of the things I enjoy about ultras is that there is a lot of uncharted territory as it is a relatively young sport. Most of the old timers took Approach 1. Only now are we seeing a more scientific approach being taken. I have learned a little, but there is a lot more to learn.

Share your insights. It would be cool to come up with an ultra season roadmap template!

Tagged:

Comments

  • Thanks for putting this together @Gabe Peterson , great read.

  • @Gabe Peterson very very well done and needed to be done. Will be revisiting this again soon.

  • @Gabe Peterson well done as per your and Tim recommendation I am actually reading Jason Koop books. Will probably be better equip to comment once I am done with the book but so far I find it very educational.

    For my first ultra season I carried forward my IM fitness and basically did 2 high volume weeks before tapering where I was mostly doing climbing and did about 110 mile per week, then taper.

    I took a few weeks easy and went back on high elevation gain work. Based on what you describe above, specificity should be done close to a race, but what about someone who lives in a flat/metro area ? should that person spread through the year or still stay on the specificity close to the race ?

    I find its a hard balance between speed-volume-climbing-downhill and in the meantime stay injury free.

    As veteran IM, we are lucky that "most" of us figured the nutrition aspect of long endurance sports.

    So happy to see this big group jumping in the unknown and ready to share their experience!

  • @Gabe Peterson

    I was off grid last week, but back online. Wow- thanks for the time you put into this. I will dig a little deeper into the thread and comments. Per your recommendation, Like @Francis Picard I also started Koop's book and will have more to comment on once I've gotten deeper into it.

  • I just noticed that I forgot to credit @tim cronk for discovering Koop's book and recommending it.

    Here are two more resources:

    1. Koop's podcasts on Science of Ultra on Intervals and Coach's Corner. He pretty much outlines his approach in these two podcasts.
    2. The Long Range Training Plan (or Season Roadmap) template. I'm going to take a crack at it for myself in the next week or two.
  • edited November 1, 2018 10:56PM

    Example Season Roadmap

    I took a crack at creating my Ultra Season Roadmap for 2019 using Koop's template. I started it this month, with R2R2R in two weeks followed by switching to marathon focused training. The wild cards are (1) Western States 100 and (2) Hardrock 100. I'll enter the lotteries for both and will do them if I get in. In that case, I would probably drop Leadville.

    Take a look and give me feedback. Download the latest version of Gabe's Ultra Season Roadmap for 2019.

    Static image for illustration (and folks who don't like to click):


  • First some comments on the 3 methods outlined above. Disclaimer there is no right answer for everyone, we are all individuals and respond differently. Gordon Byrne has done a lot of writing on many of the similarities of like types and differences of individuals for example, young vs. old, large vs. small , male vs. female , not to mention the obvious trained vs. untrained or experienced vs. inexperienced. So when choosing or building a Season road map we need to try to understand what works for each of us and be flexible enough to change when necessary.

    1.Just Run- fun, safe, successful.... also the easiest or laziest plan above, not that there is anything wrong with that, specially for the beginner or completer vs. competitor.

    2.MAF -I get it but I dont get it. If I am running 30mpw I may do 3 miles of HARD intervals and a couple more miles push Z3ish here or there. The remainder is EASY. This is a 85-90% EASY and 10-15% HARD, while not perfect MAF that is a lot of easy miles vs. hard miles and condoned by many of the best run coaches in the world. I also view my easy as Z1 not TRP.... TRP is hard and would not be MAF HR ...

    3.KOOP and the reverse periodization just makes the most sense to me, going least specific to most specific. However its the most difficult to actually pull off.

    My past year experience - 2 x 100M , 3 x 50M, and 3 x 50K, I had started with a carefully constructed plan based on Koop and going least specific to most specific through the year. After 1 block of V02 work I had a 50k race and had a calf issue, no more speed , build up to next race went good, calf gone, but no time to get the speed work in again, then I have a hip injury next 50 miler, and on it goes , before I knew it I was in specificity for Vt100 but had worked through all issues. I was able to do 1 more block of speed work prior to GT100 and am feeling pretty good.

    So my plan going forward is to focus on Rattler as my A race and not look too much further until after that. I plan to start early December and will attempt the similar build as last year. 1 speed work day per week , I will start with short V02 and build to longer Z3 intervals as time progresses. 2-2.5 months of speed work will give way to 1 solid month of specificity on back to back long days.

    Wrap Up Thoughts - no matter what methods we choose I really believe most athletes make the same mistake and this applies to cycling and swimming as well... What is that? They dont make the easy - easy enough. And they dont make the hard- hard enough. I see so many people just go out and run the same exact pace day after day. Whatever we do we need some variability in it. @Tim Sullivan is a good example he runs easy and he runs hard, its really not more complicated than that its just complicated knowing when and how much. Years ago I had a consultation with David Tillbury who reviewed my bike files , he said you are an aerobic machine Z2-Z4 , what you need is more time at Z1 and Z5 and also some low cadences strength drills.... IOW he was simply prescribing me what was missing in my training!

    @Gabe Peterson Nice Layout so are you doing Leadville camp? What about strength work?

  • edited November 2, 2018 9:32PM

    @tim cronk I'm planning to get my spot for Leadville via the Run Camp. Unlike the MTB camp which is $2500, I think the run camp is a decent value at $1000. Marvin Sandoval is one of the coaches for the camp, so I'll hang with him and get three days of coached running on the course.

    My n=1 is that strength work is critical for ultras, especially mountainous ultras. Ultras are a full body endeavor. After some of my more challenging training runs, my core is often the most sore -- and nothing is worse than a sore core! I trained extensively with poles this year, and my arms and back would get super sore. I usually incorporate 1-2 strength sessions per week. I like P90X3 and T25 as a source of workouts. Both focus on functional strength (squats, deadlifts, pushups, pullups, etc). It's easy to just throw the DVD in and bang out the workout in 30 minutes. I found P90X too hard when mixed with endurance sports. It was my gateway drug to endurance sports, but I'm just too sore after P90X to run, cycle, or swim. I am also a big believer in yoga as secret sauce for recovery and injury prevention while also getting some core work in. My belief is that regular strength work and yoga has kept me relatively injury free.

    I get your point about MAF. Primal Endurance by Brad Kearns and Mark Sisson has a slightly different take that incorporates sprinting or VO2 runs early in the season before transitioning to MAF. Kind of a mashup of reverse periodization and MAF. Kearns host the Primal Endurance Podcast and does a good job explaining it. I listened to it in 2017 when I was taking this approach. To your point, Kearns and Sisson talk about making your easy days easy and your hard days hard. They say most endurance athletes spend too much time in the "black hole" where the training isn't easy enough to build endurance while allowing for recovery and isn't hard enough to stimulate adaption.

    I like your plan leading up to Rattler! How do you plan to incorporate cycling and/or swimming in?

  • @Gabe Peterson While I will be going for a Leadville slot at the Rattler I will most likely do the camp as well, seems like a good deal with or without the slot. I'm still undecided on 2019 or 2020 and so much depends on now till then which is a long way off. I got back into the gym today, did a good job earlier this year but it fell off when got to specificity for VT. Not a fan of Sisson due to his diet sales pitch but sounds like they are spot on with training. Again its really not complicated, I remember Chrissie Wellingtons book, ya just gotta hit all the zones. Swimming will probably be 1 - 2 x per week , 30 min or less but will have short intervals, Biking I plan to hit pretty hard 2-3 times a week only 1-1.5hrs though and keep it hard intervals. Dont plan to get serious until after IMAZ/Thanksgiving time frame and just gonna enjoy mostly easy stuff while I fully recover from last race. As usual I have dilemma's in the form of races between now and Rattler , I hate to just participate and not race but I can do it if I have to LOL. So 2-3 30min gym sessions, 2-3 1hr bikes, 1-2 30 min swims, and 4-5 runs per week with 1 speed and 1 long, until around a month out from Rattler and then will drop at least 1 bike to get the back to back runs on weekends a little higher quality.

  • I am almost done with Koop book, cant thank enough people who started talking about him.

    It also had me re-focus my RDP season where I was already doing 30k runs with over 1500 meter of elevation gain. I did that for the first 2 weeks of the RDP 1.

    So I went back to speed work and decided to really go hard, by hard I mean really hard. I also do uphill intervals. I was suprised how hard it was to get to my flat interval speed (6:55-7:05 per mile) - what is my take away from this ? is that if I could get to my flat interval speed on 5% inclination is probably I wasnt going hard enough on the flat.


    As for strength work, I am actually doing it twice per week, the reasoning behind is to have a stronger top body when I will be using poles and also stronger for the power hike as I believe we are not using the same muscles compare to running.

    Regarding my season, I will take @tim cronk approach and consider Rattler as a A-Race to quality for Leadville. If I dont get into Leadville, I will do VT, then will plan backward from Moab 240 and BFC.

  • @tim cronk agreed on Sisson. My first exposure to him was the commercials at the end of P90X workouts where he pushes the Beachbody supplements. Primal Endurance also pushes Sisson's "primal" supplements heavily. Brad Kearns seems credible, however. He has a top ranked triathlete in the Mark Allen era. He makes a compelling case in his podcasts. You've had a helluva year and earned time off before getting back at it!

    @Francis Picard sounds like a solid plan! Awesome work on the hill intervals! I think too many runners neglect hill work. Since most ultras have significant elevation gain and just as importantly loss, I usually set a vertical per week target as I get closer to my A-Race. This is usually at least the total vertical of the race. The exceptions have been Bear 100 and Wasatch 100 which have over 20,000ft of vertical. I hit 15,000ft during a couple peak weeks. It's just damn tough to get in 20,000ft of vertical in a week without just doing repeats up a mountain.

  • Cycling As An Extension of the Run

    This is some secret sauce for ultras: cycling is low-risk way to build a massive engine early in the season and promote recovery deep into the season. Coming from a multi-sport background, it will seem kind of obvious. However, most ultrarunners don't cross-train. There is some weird rivalry, or even animosity, among MTBers and Trail Runners towards each other. I live in both worlds and often have to be the counterpoint that the other group also just loves getting out on the trails. Anyway, the result is that most ultrarunners would not be caught dead on a bike. Even the ultrarunners I know who started out as triathletes give up the bike.

    I have kept up cycling through the 2017 and 2018 seasons. In 2017, it was because I was doing the Leadville MTB 100 as part of the Leadman. This year, I experimented with doing triathlon training as a way to build a massive engine and then layer on specificity for ultras. The result is I can't say that I ever got tired during an ultra. Sure it hurt, even hurt like hell sometimes. At Wasatch 100, I was able to throw down a big kick at the end to pass about a dozen runner the last 14 miles. Most of them were gassed and could only shuffle.

    Based on my n=1 sample, here's how I'd blend in cycling:

    1. Focus on intensity during the least specific phase far out from your A-race. This year I did the Outseason Plan followed the Half Ironman Plan with only a few weeks on the Ironman Plan. The Outseason Plan and Half Ironman Plans are great sources of intense bike workouts. This year, I have Austin Rattler King (100k MTB Saturday and 66k ultra Sunday) at the end of March to motivate me to cycle hard.
    2. Use it as an extension of the run as you get closer to your A-race. This would be doing more endurance focused sessions. These could take the place of easy run days. I mostly go by heart rate on these, using MAF as a guideline.
    3. Use it to promote recovery around your A-race. In the last few weeks leading up to Wasatch, I'd do 1-2 easy spinning days focused on undoing the damage from the back-to-back long runs on the weekend. These were usually just set my Kickr in ERG mode at Z1 power and cruise around on Zwift for 30-45 minutes. After the race, it is especially helpful. I wasn't able to run for about a month after Bear 100, and easy spinning was a big help in recovering.

    I think MTBing is especially helpful cross-training. It is more likely to be an interval workout, with bursts of power on climbs. It is a full body effort that engages your arms and core, helping to make you more durable. On the mental side, it helps you build the physics engine to pick a good line on trails that I find translates to trail running. And it is crazy fun! However, I stopped riding my MTB about two months before Wasatch because I was already doing insane and often risky mountain runs, and didn't want to compound the risk of crashing on my MTB. I'd just ride the trainer as I got closer to the race.

    Another benefit is that you have a sport to temporarily switch to when you get the inevitable run niggles. If I got a weird ache that was more than muscle soreness, then I'd switch to cycling for a couple days until it went away. Without a backup sport, I probably would have kept running and risked injury.

    I think you could also apply this approach with other non-weight bearing exercises like swimming.

    What's your experience been? Tagging a few folks from the Rattler GroupMe who may have thoughts: @Scott Giljum @Francis Picard @tim cronk @Jeremy Behler @Shaughn Simmons @Tim Sullivan @Peter Noyes

  • Hey y'all, please add me to the Rattler GroupMe! I'm about 75% in for the MTB race at this point. Thanks!

  • @Gabe Peterson And others..

    Some "rules" for cycling to consider...

    • Building Anaerobic / Threshold Strength - running hard / fast and running fast are super costly. I agree with the 10% rule that I believe was from above. Running 30 miles? 3 can be hard/fast. But if you are cycling, you can do 2-3 hard rides a week IN ADDITION to your running. This is safest early in your year, but could also happen in a 4- to 6- Block anytime to re-energize your training as needed.
    • Building Volume - There's no substitute for aerobic time, and cycling is a great way to do it. So is hiking, XC skiing, Skate Skiing, SkiMo, MTB riding, Gravel riding, etc. I say cycling as almost all of you here have bikes, and you have friends who have bikes. So it's pretty simple. As you are building your early season run durability, you can easily "match" your run volume time with cycling time. So if you are running 8 hours in a week (a lot!) then you could do 8 hours of cycling as well.
    • Specificity of Cycling to Ultra = Heart Rate - Target your UR HR on the "volume rides" so you can match the aerobic load of what the ultra running would be. Also use a variety of cadences to challenge yourself neuromuscularly as well.
    • Cycling As Recovery - I don't normally advocate "recovery runs" but recovery spins are great. They can help your flush your legs after long runs and will promote recovery. Even just an hour can really help!
  • Now that I am training I have started to take a crack at what my return to fitness looks like:

    It is basically a mix up of some different types of training I have done in the past that I responded well to. Some of the highlights are to build up a long run using a (run/walk strategy). Back to back runs do not come until the end, and they are every other week. Cycling will supplement / complement my running. Peak run week will be 60 miles. I plan to take it pretty easy the first 7 weeks in an attempt to build some base and not get injured. (In the past I have jumped up to 40 miles in 3 weeks after coming off of a break...)

    This plan more resembles marathon training more than it does ultra, but the rattler is flat and runnable. I plan to post this to my coach's forum as well.

  • edited November 5, 2018 11:01PM via Email
    Please critic!

    Here is my season plan:

  • Wow! There is a ton of great information in here. Thanks @Gabe Peterson !

    I have found MAF does not work for me. It has done nothing but making me very good at running slow. I am 47, but I bought into this concept when I was around 42, so my MAF heart rate has been 138 and lower. I have never gotten faster no matter how long I tried. The only time I ever got faster is when I had a weekly tempo runs (3 to 6 miles) and speed work. For this reason, I believe the third approach works best form me.

    IMO opinion, MAF works well for people under 40 with a MAF heart-rate higher than 140. It also seems to work well for athletes who are already fast (like Mark Allen).

    I do love the approach of adding cycling to the tools. First, I love cycling. Zwift with EN and Discord, makes long rides on and races a lot of fun. I road three hours on Zwift yesterday and had different people jump in and out of discord through the whole ride.

    For this these reasons, I plan to approach training for Rattler like I did for Ultraman except:

    1) I will not swim

    2) I probably will not exceed three or four hours on the bike or

    3) I will not do any back to back long rides

    I am not really 100% sure how this should look, so I'd love some feedback. Also, other than a 70.3 in August, I have no idea what I am going to do in 2019.

  • edited November 5, 2018 11:10PM

    @Coach Patrick I love the Coach P Rules!

    On the building anaerobic strength, I was thinking the same thing about a short block to re-energize my training. I put a 6 week "Get Faster" block in after Zion 100k in April. Partly that's to break up the season, but also because Leadville and Moab have long runnable sections. If I can keep my threshold speed up, then jogging at a 10:00-14:00 miles down a dirt road becomes "easy." Glad that follows Coach P's Rules. 😜

    Interesting observation on being able to stack hard rides on top of running during this phase. Last year I was cautious with cycling, but this year I pretty much decided I could go nuts on the bike early in the year.

    I've been meaning to try XC skiing. I'm literally the only person in the state of Utah who doesn't ski. Sounds like it would be good cross-training, in addition to cycling.

    My approach for targeting cycling HR to my ultra HR has been to use MAF for longer rides closer in to my A-race. I spend ~95% of my time in an 50-mile and greater ultras with my HR at or below MAF.


  • Here is what I am actually planning

  • @Peter Noyes looking forward to your Rocky montage comeback! This looks like a really excellent plan to me -- you've clearly been to this rodeo before.

    Interesting observation that it is basically marathon training. It looks like the Rattler 66k has about 2,200ft of vertical, making it an extraordinarily flat ultra. I think in some ways it will be harder to run continuously for that distance than an mountainous ultra where you get hiking "breaks." I don't even have any trails that flat to train on, and I don't recall many in Southern California. What are you thinking for long runs to simulate Rattler? Road runs?

    What are you planning after Rattler? Doing another 100?


  • @Gabe Peterson Thanks for the feedback! I hope in Austin we can fine some swinging beef for old times sake.

    I plan to do a fair amount of road running. However, I do have this "rim of the mountain trail" near my house that is a a couple of miles of relatively flat trail that I can do some out and backs on. I might need to find something flatter. I am actually scared of it being flat as you mentioned. I like the typical ultra where you are forced to walk just by the nature of the terrain.

    As for what is next, if I magically qualify for Leadville then I would do that. Otherwise, I would target some other later 100 miler, perhaps San Diego.

  • @Brian Hagan great data point on MAF -- now we have n=2! 😀

    My experience was similar that I didn't get faster doing MAF, but I built up a massive aerobic engine. That probably made me faster over long distances like a 50-miler but definitely did improve my 5k times. I agree that you need speedwork to get faster. With your accomplished athletic background, I'd think you're a perfect candidate for the Reverse Periodization approach.

    Using EN plans, I'd think you could do something like:

    • Do the Get Faster Plan or Half Marathon Plan for 6-10 weeks (whatever duration works for you). Those should have some quality speedwork. Maybe consider having an early season Half Marathon, a la Old School EN.
    • Do the 50-mile Plan 8-12 weeks out from Rattler to focus on specificity.


  • @Francis Picard great looking template! 😏

    Like I said on the Rattler GroupMe, I think it's feasible to do BFC and Moab. My sense is that BFC is so technical that you can't run fast enough to bury yourself. It could be your last "big day" before Moab. That said, a 200 is definitely a graduate-level race. It scares the shit out of me. I should have three 100s and a bunch of ultras under my belt by then. Finishing Leadville will be a major accomplishment in its own right -- the DNF rate is ~50%.

    Have you considered doing an early season race to have a goal for the speedwork? Maybe a half marathon in February.


  • Thanks @Gabe Peterson What I have in my back pocket is a last man standing race on my local mountain in January.

    As for HM, cant really find some local before March as everything is just on ice here during 3 months :(

  • @Francis Picard @Gabe Peterson @Peter Noyes @Scott Alexander @Brian Hagan @tim cronk

    Guys- there is SO much good info here that I literally need to put it in my agenda to give it it's proper time. Please keep this one going strong!

  • OMG, I finally found the forums you all have talked so much about! Here are some of my random thoughts on topics that have been mentioned in here so far:

    1. I pretty strongly agree with P that fast running comes at a high cost and (at least for me) a higher risk of injury. I have spent enough time on the DL to lean a bit more cautious with fast miles. What I have inserted that does help with speed (at least I believe it does) is strides on shorter runs, and alternate miles on longer runs. Strides I think we all understand. The alternate miles means that I run my go all day pace for one mile, then dial it up a notch the next mile. This typically is still only moving to marathon or half marathon pace at most, so not "too" fast, but still dialing it up a bit. Those two keep it fresh, have increased my speed a bit, but don't seem to come at a big cost (I'm not injured at this point, knock on wood!).
    2. Cycling has been a big deal for me on my build to my 50 mile race. At first it provided two roles. One, it added some intensity through Zwift races without the concern of injury that would be there if I tried to dial my run up that high. Two, since my mileage base was not big enough to immediately start ripping off longer back to back run weekends, it was a great addition to a run to give me the work time my body needed to get ready.
    3. More on cycling. As my mileage has grown, I still find it helpful to do rides that have some strong efforts mixed with steadier time (for those of you who have done them, think of the former Sunday Zwift ABP ride, now more appropriately called Cruise and Crush). I also have seen great benefit from some spin time following long runs for recovery purposes. On weekends with long back to backs, I noticed a significant difference for the better when I rode on Saturday as opposed to when I did not. I actually might suggest you add it to the 50 mile training plan Coach P.
    4. I see some season roadmaps being put together. Gabe, you have a good amount of experience in the ultra space. I know I do not, and I would guess at least a number of us do not as well. This is where I earn the room mother title, but I am not sure how my body will react and recover from this type of effort. Since I have that in the back of my mind, I am much more hesitant to start scheduling up a big season with lots of races. That's just me. I know others take a different approach.

    So thanks for putting this thread out there Gabe. I find it very insightful and feel like I learn something each time I check in. I am looking forward to further exploring the ultra space.

  • @Scott Giljum great post, thanks for adding to the discussion! I can add my thoughts based on my n=1 experience.

    • I agree with you and @Coach Patrick that running fast comes at a high cost. I'm 170-175lbs depending on the time of year, so it is really costly for me to run fast on pavement. I feel like I was hit my a dump truck. Two things that have worked for me are:
    1. Hills and more hills. I'll run hard uphill, but I'm not going fast enough to have serious risk of injury. This can give a good dose of intensity to get my HR up. Then I think running fast downhills are a great way to work on leg speed without the intensity to have serious risk of injury. Downhills should be done on trails or dirt to lessen the impact. Most ultras come down to hills. Most runners train for the uphill, but give up tons of free speed on the downhills. Or worse, because they haven't trained for downhill, their quads are shot and they have to walk.
    2. Do speedwork on the treadmill. For me, this really lessens the beating my legs take. With Zwift Running, I have created a few custom interval and tempo runs. These are kind of like structured trainer works. Just set the treadmill to the target pace and hang on.
    • Great insights on cycling -- I'd love to see an EN 50-mile plan that incorporates cycling! One other thing that I experimented with bit this season after reading about it in Powell's book was a reverse brick to extend the long run, keeping the motor revved up while reducing the impact. Basically the idea is go run for say 2 hours, and then immediately jump on the bike keeping your HR at the average of your run. This worked well on days where I had to be back early from my long run to watch the girls. I'd just jump on the trainer for another hour or so. I didn't do it much because honestly it was always more fun to just keep running.
    • On season roadmaps, my recommendation would be to work up distances incrementally. I did my first 50k in 2015, then a 50-miler in 2016, and finally worked up to a 100 last year. To your point, I got a really good sense of how my body would recover. Just like not jumping straight into an Ironman, I'd say enjoy the ultra journey.


  • @Gabe Peterson I did both the traditional brick and the reverse with different ends in mind but the same basic goal of long duration fitness.

    The traditional brick served two purposes. First, I could get up early but not have to run in the dark where things can be a touch dicier around my house where street lights must be outlawed or something they are so rare. Two, it helped create a long run (typically 1.5 to 2 hours) on tired legs. I hoped (and still do) that it created some of that mental fortitude I will need on race day.

    The reverse brick meant my run felt smoother and I could keep building fitness once on the bike beyond what I wanted to ask my legs to do with just running. Again, coming off of injury and baby stepping myself back to decent mileage make the bike additions a must. Good thing I really enjoy Zwift!

  • Wow! What a great thread! Thanks Coach P for directing my attention to this “conversation”.

    Personally, I believe that cycling would be a great benefit to anyone looking to do an Ultra. I don’t have the data to back up my statement, but it seems to me that the “wear and tear” on your feet will eventually catch up to everyone.  I like the comments everyone has written about how to incorporate the bike training into an Ultra plan.  This past August, I was training for a 50M race in western NY, but by the middle of July, I was experiencing small tweaks and was burnt out with the running.  I should have done some cycling in lieu of going on a long run.  

    Lastly, I don’t think we can forget about the advantages of weight lifting to improve our running. I have started to incorporate small doses of squats and lunge, and I can really feel the difference in my running. 

    Thanks again for recommending this piece.  I know it will definitely shape my training for my next Ultra.

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