Cycling- Pmax, FRC, V02, etc.
Sorry Its gonna be Lengthy. Lots of data, lots of chart pictures. If your the kinda person who likes to do your FTP work at IF.90-.95 instead of IF 1.0-1.05. This thread may not be for you. If you are afraid of testing , this thread may not be for you. If you are one of those Zwift guys that races everyday at %100 percent , then this thread is for you :-) There is no magic, just science and really hard work.
The Question - All we really want to know is. Will doing shorter harder work , above threshold, result in a higher threshold and ultimately higher HIM and IM bike numbers? My N = 1 is an unequivocal YES having set all time high power numbers from Pmax all the way out to 2hrs. I can only assume this would continue on out to the time frames of typical HIM/IM bike legs.
The Help - Special thanks to @Rich Stanbaugh who has done a tremendous amount of work guiding and educating me on the theories behind this type of training and the use of the WKO4 program through this experiment. I'd be remiss if I did not mention @matt limbert and @Dave Campbell who I have also discussed the topic directly with , and @Dave Tallo, @Peter Greagg , @Al Truscott , all of whom have commented/participated in threads to provoke thought on this subject , and to all those I may have missed. While I worked directly with @Rich Stanbaugh it was my hope that the outcome of this work would end up in some form of application in the EN plans, as it appears to be the closest thing to a breakthrough in training , or at least a different training stimulus which many of us would welcome. An Endurance Nation WKO4 Chart Pack developed by @Rich Stanbaugh @Dave Campbell @matt limbert @Coach Patrick and anyone else who has a grasp of the WKO4 program would be the desired outcome , hopefully inspired by and influenced by some of the data within this experiment.
Disclaimer- So much of this is way over my head. I apologize in advance for anything I may not get correctly. Please notify me or question any errors so that I may correct them.
What I like and don't like about WKO4 - Many of you know my thoughts on Andy Coggan and the "new FTP". I prefer to speak in factual terms , for example the power for each time frame and w/kg's for those time frames , avoiding "the estimates " IMO The beauty of using WKO4 to apply this type of training is the facts of the MMP mean max power curve (all factual data that you have supplied the program ) vs. the model for data the PDC power duration curve (an estimate) . The relationship of these 2 curves is the tofu and potatoes of the WKO4 program. IOW what you have done vs. what the model thinks you can do. The capabilities of analysis using the WKO4 program appear to be endless but what I really don't like is the complexity of using this program . However there are plenty of ready made charts within WKO4 and some really WSM's above that do know how to use it. Did I mention that a lot of this is over my head?
The Background and Training leading into this - I have always been weakest in the short term 5' and under power numbers , which shows up in the categories by w/kg chart and percentage's of v02 relative to threshold. Most triathletes have similar categories charts being weaker at the shorter times and stronger at the longer times, although being a light weight mine is probably even more exaggerated . I have attempted many times with a much more focussed strategy to "lift the roof" so that I may "lift the ceiling" with minimal results, which makes these results more interesting, not to mention I am older and definitely bumping up against some age limitations here. "The experiment" has been around 6 months long, with the first 2 months just training to train ,getting my bike back up to speed. While this experiment had serious goals it was still a bit chaotic and fragmented as I treated my Run Training as the primary focus maintaining a high run volume , speed work , and lots of races.
The Categories chart showing the weakness in the short time frames and the strength in the longer time frames.
Bike PMC from 1/1/18 showing the sporadic training over the last 1.5yrs. 1st build in chart was last spring on Zwift , realizing how much I had lost by focussing on only Ultra running. 2nd build in the chart was for SOS triathlon last Sept. 3rd build in chart is the last 6 months of this experiment.
Run PMC from 1/1/18 only to show the structured, steady, consistent, focussed approach with builds, tapers, races, and recoveries fairly obvious vs. the less structured approach visible in the bike PMC above.
THE WORK - Or How Rich and I went about this.
Feeding the model - In order to have an accurate PDC model it needs to be fed data. Establishing mean max power for all durations from 1 second all the way out to Ironman bike leg time frame will give you the most accurate model. I'll break up the experiment into 5 phases or categories of collecting/testing/adding data to the model starting from 1 second and working out to 2hrs. Obviously some of these are interchangeable and dont have to be done in order but the order listed below felt logical to me.
1.Pmax to 5' - Pmax is simply your best peak power , I think most power meter's count one revolution for a Pmax reading , 5" second power is usually close , for instance my Pmax is just over 700 and my top 3 5" powers were all around 650. Rich likes to choose the right gear, on the right hill, outside , from a stopped position, and go absolutely all out until you spin out. I tried this a few times but had better luck on a trainer. I would get in the biggest gear where I could and slow pedal around 50rpms and go from there all out , I would try to target 15-20 seconds , and almost like clockwork I would be done around 13 seconds. Longest 13 seconds of your life. These all out efforts require much more recovery inbetween attempts than we are used to, think 7-12 minutes , yes really that long. From there I went to 30", 1' , 2' on out to 5'. I tried to accomplish these on the trainer but I found getting out past 30" and definitely 1' a major struggle on the trainer. I could not get enough air, I would finish an interval, and would immediately jump off the bike , yanking my ear buds out, pulling my chest HR strap off, shirt if I still had it on, and walking it off. Every thing felt restrictive and oxygen consuming. Working outside minimized this type of side effects from that kind of effort.
2.Chasing the Model - What I call playing the game you cannot win. OK after having set 2-3 rounds of good MMP data in the Pmax - 5' time frame and assuming you already have some pretty good data from there out towards an hour the PDC should be pretty good. From here you can view your own MMP/PDC chart and anywhere your MMP is below your PDC , go out and target that power and time frame trying to push your MMP above your PDC. There are also charts that do the work for you called Best Times for Informal Testing , Optimized Interval Training , or Interval Targeting. Why is this the game that cannot be won? Because whenever you push up on one part of the graph it changes something somewhere else. Below is my current MMP/PDC the yellow line is what I have done and the red line is what the model thinks I can do. You can see that the yellow line is below the red line in the 1:45-2:30 range, I "need" to push that portion of the yellow line above the red line :-)
The other chart you will learn to love/hate is the new bests. Below is a shot of last weeks Kitt Peak effort/test/validation.
3.Extending timeframes - simply taking your 5' and making it 6' then 7' then 8' and so on . Again the game you cant win. Even if your power is dropping and you are fading , push a little each timeframe to extend just a bit further than before. You can see little table tops within the MMC through all time frames.
4.20' testing - this is like traditional testing but, having done so much work above my last tested 20' power in the form of 10' range, I felt more confident going into it.... Around the mid point of this build I had signed up for a 12 mile TT outside on a course I am familiar with, I took the TT bike out for 2 x 15'ish WKO's for 3-4 weeks in a row, I figured roughly 30' for the TT and targeted a power just above my recent 15', race day I failed to hold my optimistic targets but was able to hold on to my old known 20-30' power numbers, so its not all Unicorns and I was a bit disappointed. Back to work at numbers 1.-3. listed above and retested on a Mt. Lemmon climb 2 months later crushing all expectations.
5.60'-120' testing - again traditional testing but with even more confidence from the data it was really just a matter of choosing the right power for the time frame and doing it. By now the PDC is pretty accurate, but its also pretty scary predicting numbers that seem impossible, reviewing all old best data and looking at the new PDC estimated data for the time frames. I targeted the 2hr test first since a Mt. Lemmon ride was up next and allowed for a solid 2hr uninterrupted ride, I reviewed the PDC , my last hard 1.5hr effort which was last years SOS race, and lastly looked at all my past HIM splits , target the PDC out past 1hr and then just above all past HIM splits, even though this test was 30' short of my HIM splits it did come in 15-17watts higher than my best. Lastly was a Kitt Peak Ride where I would get a solid 1hr ride to validate. Same analysis for the target with a successful 73 minute test. Both long tests had a fade of about 6-8% from the first half to the second half.
Comparison Results 2019 vs. 2013-2018
Comparison Power Curves 2019 vs. 2013-2018
V02 Max Chart 2019 - just kept climbing - Rich kept wanting me to do work at 95% of V02max but as V02max continued to climb it made 95% work more difficult to attain. The game that cannot be won.
FTP review shows interesting correlation's. FWIW WKO4 still had my mFTP in the mid 230's after the 20' test at 261 , the model did not move up into the 240's until I provided the 60' data.
FRC - goes from 7 to 11 but then when mFTP gets bumped up the FRC goes back down to 10.... Did I say this is a game you cant win?
Best Times for Informal Testing Chart. Calculates your 3 biggest differentials from MMP to PDC and gives you the data on the right side.
I knew it would be long. Its exciting. I could go on posting more of my favorite data charts but I think this is enough. The thread has been 6 months in the making. I could not have done it without @Rich Stanbaugh . I've actually been delaying in completing the thread since I did have 1 major goal that actually got this ball rolling and that was to hit 300watts for 5 minutes. I can even say this thread has been in the making for 2-3 years when a few years ago I challenged @Coach Patrick with a goal. His was 400w for 5' and mine was 300w for 5'. As we all know @Coach Patrick busted through 400w last year and hasnt looked back , the last I saw he was at 446w for 5' just a few days ago. I tried last tuesday and again today and just did not have it in me. I have fallen short of 300w by only 6w coming in at 294w. I may have one more go in me coming up on thursday, but after that something has to give as I have a long run coming up in August. The bike will be on maintenance mode through August and will resume the experiment after that!
Questions, Comments, Discussion's, Sharing of Data, Sharing of WKO4 Charts, are all welcome. Please speak up no matter what!
Comments
@tim cronk Thanks for this.
I haven't had time to digest it all but it is great information. So thanks for sharing.
As I have posted before, I expect long course triathletes to respond both quickly and significantly to working at durations less than 5 minutes. One of the reasons for this belief is the standard FTP (10 - 15 mins) focused work through almost the whole year and as a result the energy systems associated with durations less than 5 minutes are very undeveloped.
@Rich Stanbaugh has sketched out a similar program for me. I just need to recover from hernia repair and get to work.
BTW, I have been waiting for this post since you foreshadowed it in your Whiskey Basin Race Report.
Oh, and btw, watching one of Coggan's webinars he stated that changes in Pmax had a correlation coefficient with changes in mFTP of 0.25.
So a 20% change in Pmax could be associated with a 5% change in FTP. That in itself is a good reason to try and push up Pmax as much a you can. And given most of us have hardly done any work at these durations, we should see big initial gains.
In summary: #WorkWorks
impressive work and especially the analytics!
I'm a big dood, and have a pretty good short duration power curve (I'm at work, so cannot provide the numbers or a chart right now), and my biggest difficulty is getting it to carry across longer durations. I've got 4 weeks until Eagleman, where I'll be trying to do just that.
This would be a great program for a VERY long duration event, aka Leadville or Dirty Kanza, or something similar, to see if it still works/applies, which I imagine it would - it just requires data and saddle time.
I love this topic :)
@tim cronk can you clarify your goals with this analysis? Are you looking to be a better all rounder cyclist? Trying to improve 3, 4 or 5 hour power? All of the above?
I've listened to a bunch of Tim Cusick's WKO webinars and he is a big advocate of the type of training I believe. Look for big gaps in the actual versus theoretical and try to close them. Train all aspects of the power curve. Sufferfest really highlights this too with their 4DP model.
I'm never quite sure if making your goal to be working on the short term stuff really makes to a better long course rider and I'm very interested in your and others feedback on this.
I've spent the last year straddling two main ideas. (1). Ride a lot at IM pace and (2) the Stephen Seiler approach to accumulate 10-20% of your time just above VT2 (Threshold). I actually find this a bit hard still so I have some time just below threshold. So IM prep work has been one 1 hour ride with intervals just at or over FT, one 1 hour or so workout below FT and then one long ride sitting at IM watts.
Of course this strategy makes me a horrible all rounder, and WKO politely calls me untrained for stuff under 5 minutes or so. I've had a pretty good start to my trip season though. I'd seriously consider adjusting some of my hard days to a more targeted PD/MMP gap targeting if I knew that all you guys were making big gains all along the power curve with this strategy.
On this one, highest column is the warmup - cool down - RBI stuff. Top of bell curve is IM stuff. Next jump to there right is the sub FT stuff and then right at or just over FT. Virtually nothing past that.
@tim cronk - I have huge respect for the amount of work that you are able to do and your ability to keep pushing when it hurts. #WorkWorks (when you do it). You are reversing the aging process!
You are also super gracious and giving me too much credit. You were on the bike - that's where it happened. Thanks for letting me participate!
@tim cronk - alternative hypothesis: is it possible that you were just sandbagging all these years? :)
Here's a real world example of how this plays out. I have done a number of bike camps with @Rich Stanbaugh , we are very close to each other at all of these camps, until BRC last week. I thought I was in pretty good shape, my numbers for one hour power are as good as they have ever been at this point of the season. Rich handily crushed me for three days in a row at BRC.
The question was if I was worse and he regained former level of fitness or if He reached a new level. It was clear from the guys he was riding with that he reached a new level. Bottom line is that this shizz clearly works. These were not short rides, we are talking 5-7 hour rides, 89 miles with 11,000' of climbing. He looked strong at the end of the day whereas I was in survival mode all three days.
pour me some kool-aid as fast as possible!
@tim cronk Did change your approach to recovery during this period? How often were you able to do the FRC work per week or training cycle? Congratulations and thanks for sharing.
@Peter Greagg - {So a 20% change in Pmax could be associated with a 5% change in FTP. That in itself is a good reason to try and push up Pmax as much a you can. And given most of us have hardly done any work at these durations, we should see big initial gains.}
^^^ This is very interesting. In the last 6 months it looks like my Pmax increased 25% and mFTP 10%... Hard to call it a strong correlation since like you said most of us are underdeveloped below 5' and I had never truly tested Pmax prior. I do have no doubt that a correlation exists , its just how much of a percentage it maybe and probably very individual. Now I have established numbers Pmax to 5' its difficult to imagine increasing them from here but ya never know :-).
@Al Truscott lol yep it really is that simple #workworks , however I do believe different types of work, done at different periods of time during a build (classic EN fast then far) or different types of work within our cycling career (insanity= doing the same thing expecting different results) IOW we must occasionally change the stimulus to trigger or unlock some kind of response... Some of this may work better than others... You may remember the mini Snowmass camp I did with you and Dave Tallo ? I was well into another experiment of a Sweetspot block (upper tempo or zone 3 and lower threshold zone 4 training) , the theory is you can log a lot more time per week in this range, and you can. However I felt it was too easy and did not produce any top end results for me. I did think it was good training for say a HIM in the last 4-6 week prior to event.
@Scott Alexander I'd be interested to see your short term power curve. There is no doubt like any stimulus I think the results would be highly individual and body type would play a huge role in these differences. The applications of reviewing the categories charts for where we are weakest and chasing those differentials between MMP/PDC can be applied , sounds like yours will be further out on the curves?
Great recap Tim. As we discussed in Moab, @Rich Stanbaugh and I started talking this up a couple years ago at BR Camp. Spring of 2017. That summer, I tested the process of a lot of FRC work. I had similar results as you posted above. Much stronger Pmax and FRC and slightly higher FTP than my all time fittest IM prep in 2011. Net was 6 years older and stronger at all power durations out to 3-4 hrs. I’m a true believer there is a place for year round FRC work for both triathletes and cyclist. My weekly routine now is Tuesday FTP Intervals, Thursday FRC/Pmax intervals. Sat and Sun longer fast group rides. The FRC work doesn’t seem to give me as much lingering fatigue, so I stack it at the end of the week. Wed are usually recover ride or swim.
@tim cronk @Rich Stanbaugh - immense amount of smart work and focus here all wrapped up in a tremendous package for the team to study/use/leverage. Thank you.
Key question for me is "how does it translate into an improved IM performance overall" ?
SS
@Tom Glynn - so glad you chimed in and I definitely forgot/missed mentioning you since I know you LOVE this topic :-)
Goals - I dont have much interest in cycle racing outside of TT type stuff, but yeah I'd love to be a better overall cyclist in Zwift and MTB maybe for my next Everest attempt? Since I am not doing an IM until November I did not really consider anything out past 2-3hrs but the overall goal was to see if and prove if this theory works. Increasing 1'-5' should relate to an increased 20' which should relate to an increased 60' which should relate to an increased 5hr. @Dave Campbell has some data supporting this out to 5hrs.
Below are @Rich Stanbaugh targets for me. He really was trying to kill me. My notes and interim goals were written below. I exceeded my 20' goal by 1watt :-) and fell short of 5' by 6watts.
On IM training, I have always believed training all zones every week year round is a good thing, but I think we still need to periodize how much of these zones relative to our events. Having just done an IM and having plenty of time before KONA I think a solid block of this type of training would be a very welcome change, less time, and could very well surprise you when you go back to IM build. Instead of trying to do both at the same time break it up to focussed blocks. Maybe 8 weeks of FRC focus and then your IM build?
@tim cronk , your last paragraph - the first line - is totally my perspective!
I tell all my people, training partners, clients, anyone that'll listen to me on the soapbox, that every power/HR range and zone, every cadence range and gearing configuration, every riding position, etc, needs to be trained, because it makes you better all around and will prepare you for anything you could come across on race day!
@Rich Stanbaugh YW and thank you oh so much for trying to freaking kill me!
@Dave Tallo Oh No Sandbagger Busted :-) I suspect many of your thoughts/questions are getting covered but I expect some more witty ones coming soon.
@scott dinhofer not sure how much of this you wanna delve into prior to IMLP, obvious discussion with @Coach Patrick here, IMO this would be best applied throughout the winter or OS, maybe next year you can apply FRC training mid week through the winter and do SKIMO on weekends to maintain endurance?
@tim cronk My email reply from yesterday didn't work...Pasting here...
This is epic! It would’ve taken most people just as long to compile this report as it did for them to do all of the work you have done. I really appreciate you pulling it all together, and in a way I think it’s much better than if other people tried to do it without being on the athlete side of the equation like yourself. There’s a lot of information here with regards to the value of investing your time to get smarter about how your training which is one of our court tenets. There is a good deal of work that we can do as a community to make people smarter, but at some point there is a personal level of investment, time and money and effort, that’s required if someone is to reach their true potential. Take that genetics!
I agree with the statement that the game cannot be won, but it is the game that lets you win other games! For me the process has been quite liberating and it’s been very interesting to go after this for a second season. I am just as interested as to what the results will be having already seen progress last year.
I agree with determining some fixed outcomes from this process:
– a WKO4 chart pack
– a video course or instruction course on how to follow the progression
– a baseline template for how to do the work that people can use and then modify.
For the record this is really for mostly advanced athletes, people that I would say have been on the team at least two full years if not three. In other words, there’s a lot of what you need to do in order to get to be able to do the work that you want to do to be as fast as you would like to be. Put that on a shirt!
@tim cronk So for your "Chasing the Model" scenario, do you start by looking for the biggest gap between theoretical and actual? And for the time spent, do you simply allocate a certain amount of time each week, say one hour of FRC work and if you're targeting 2 minutes, then you would do more intervals than if you were targeting 20 minutes?
I noticed that your very short stuff is close to a cat 5 level versus my untrained status. Any thoughts on looking to be at least cat 5 as a goal or just MMP/PD differences?
Have you looked at outside guidance, say Tim Cusick at WKO or are you guys learning and applying as you go?
@matt limbert you were very instrumental in getting this going after we had that discussion, I like your scientific thinking approach which goes way beyond FRC training but how this effects the entire day swim/run not just bike....
Recovery was the same - Lots of good vegan food, lots of naps, I maintained a pretty high weight for me :-) throughout. Since the short FRC stuff appears to be easier to recover from I really had no issues, I typically did 2x FRC work per week on tues/thurs and a hard interval run day on weds, back to back run days on the weekends.... occasionally I would get in a 3rd FRC day and or a couple easy recovery bike days. Since I really lacked perfect structure which shows in the PMC charts run vs. bike I would hardly call this a training cycle. But I did try to apply some semblance of logic with Rich's suggestions along the way, for instance after building up to 2' I progressed 2.5',3',3.5',4' etc. keeping the rest between these all out efforts in the 7-10 min range, total work per wko was usually 8-12 min range. I had one wko 4 x 15" and 4 x 1' that is 5 minutes of work in one hour LOL.... prior to the 20' test some of the key workouts built up to a 2 x 11' and a 1 x 7' , 6', 5' the latter is funny cause Rich assigned me a 3 x 8 ' as you can see I shortened the first one and then made a deal with the devil to continue going shorter afterwards but that was all I had. Hope that helps visualize some kind of process. I wonder how it would have turned out with more structure?
@Dave Campbell Bam Confirmation :-) I enjoyed our chats in MOAB and love your charts (again way over my head) but WOW , I still need some of those? Totally agree as hateful and difficult as the FRC can be it is much easier to absorb without lingering fatigue.
@Shaughn Simmons great question. I think its two fold. 1st is if this does translate into a higher power curve all the way out to 5hrs + then we can ride IM power higher, 2nd would be if I understand FRC correctly which stands for Functional Reserve Capacity or the amount of work above threshold that we can do, then you can use that unspent FRC on the run or even the swim.
@tim cronk - exactly my thoughts in your response. How does it translate to running well, better or worse off the bike for that IM marathon......
Does the extra work or the change in the type of work on the bike during training take away from the ability to train the run, etc....
Keep Leading!
SS
@tim cronk - as you know, I've stepped up to Coach EN and I ONLY do what my Coach (@Coach Patrick ) tells me to do. Period. @Rich Stanbaugh understands that too.. That said, P wants to see an increase in one of my ranges vs my historical and is having me do a 4 week injection of 1x per week here. We more recently were working on 5-10min power. The value of having P look at my WKOs every week and provide adjusted WKOs for a few weeks has been invaluable.
@Coach Patrick The game that cannot be won but enables you to win other games appears to be working for you. Not only have you had major 5' and 20' breakouts last year but it translated into your IM bike splits and probably even into your IM run, certainly the entire IM day. The discussion's behind the scenes with those mentioned above about your recent improvements after being in the game so long were ar is it a. all the camps? b. is it zwift? c. is it the FRC work? or d. all of the above. I say all of the above but the FRC cannot be ignored.
I could not agree more that this is a very advanced approach and would say 3 years of solid training background recommended. Tried and true initial couple years EN training will net the largest initial gains.
{There’s a lot of information here with regards to the value of investing your time to get smarter about how your training which is one of our court tenets.}
I think there is a double whammy to be had here on the "time savings" 1st would be quicker understanding through the fixed outcomes listed below. 2nd would be the application as it really can be done in 3-4hrs per week which is right in line with OS hrs.
FIXED OUTCOMES- When I asked for @Rich Stanbaugh assistance, I said don't give me a fish, teach me how to fish . I wanted him to tell me what to do but I also wanted to learn why or how to apply for myself.
EN Chart Pack - from what I have seen @Rich Stanbaugh and @Dave Campbell are the masters of the WKO4 program, however I think everything we need has already been built. Maybe we could do a WSM webinar or discussion on what charts to include.
Video Instruction- Teaching someone to review the charts above, determine weakness, setting goals, and designing a process. One of the beautiful things about the WKO4 MMP/PDC curve is it is individual , so each person would have a more individualized approach. This is a really good thing, NOT a one size fits all.
Baseline Template - some ideas, initial standards , then transitioning to individual, then modifying based on weakness, strength, goals, and time frames... Kind of overlaps with the video instruction... Maybe the Baseline Template should just be a written/Wiki version of the video instruction?
My next question...can this work be done for run (pace, HR, and/or power) as well?
[snip]
FIXED OUTCOMES- When I asked for @Rich Stanbaugh assistance, I said don't give me a fish, teach me how to fish . I wanted him to tell me what to do but I also wanted to learn why or how to apply for myself.
{snip}
Just what kind of Vegan are you?????? I didn't think you even permitted meat-based metaphors.
If I am totally off base let me know.
Does being faster at the shorter intervals make us faster at the longer intervals? Or does doing the work at shorter intervals develop the energy systems that help make us faster at the longer intervals?
Today ends any testing for this portion of the experiment. Tried one more time to break 300w for 5' and came in at 282 which is tied for my 2nd/3rd all time high, looks like 294 is it for now. Which brings me to another awesome chart called Top Three Mean Max, I like to eventually see 3 similar numbers to validate.
@Tom Glynn YES to chasing the largest gaps, the Best Testing chart calculates that for you. Rich wanted me to target accumulating time of 10' per week above 95% vo2max, and working it out towards 15' per week. I found that pretty much impossible, above 90% v02max was definitely more achievable. I think I said he was trying to kill me. Each day is different but I would tend to try for at least 8-12' of intervals depending on how they were going. 20' of work that far above threshold is pretty much out of the question for me anyway. Here is a 4 x 3' (10') each interval got a little weaker, I was done. With a warm up and extra time between efforts its hard to get much more than 12' of work into an hour anyway. https://www.strava.com/activities/2182143581/laps I think targeting 10' of work in a wko is a good place to start with intervals 2' and under, maybe up to 12' of work from 3-4' intervals, and 5'+ can go out towards 15'+ minutes of work. 2-3x per week should be manageable. You know when your done :-) Pushing up into at least Cat 5 for the beginning of my PDC? Cant wait to try again later this year, but I think that is it for now, I even went on youtube to learn how to sprint using the entire body to try and get more watts. I monitor Tim Cusick and the WKO4 forums but had my hands and mind full with what I have learned so far.
@Scott Alexander I imagine it would work on the Run , But I dont think for me, I dont seem to have any bandwidth above my CP running and I really think we risk injury going here. However during most of this bike experiment my 1x run speed days were pretty much all out intervals 1'-5' in length topping out at 15' total work, very similar to the bike work.
@Dave Tallo guess I should have said.... do not give me a can of beans but teach me how to grow beans ?
@Robert Sabo - I believe the Developing power under 3 minutes:
@Scott Alexander - I believe that a lot of running plans do this. For example, the Hanson method has a speed day (shorter intervals at the 5k speed that corresponds to the marathon pace you are trining for) and a strength day (faster than race pace but longer intervals).
The difference is that the intervals we are doing for the bike are at 100%, all out, garbage-can-beside-the-bike intensities.
Running at those intensities would most certainly result in a ton of injuries.
@Shaughn Simmons - I partly tried to answer this in response to @Robert Sabo's question.
In the past, I always thought of the anaerobic as an area that I would never go to during an Ironman. Ride smooth and never go there. What I believe now is that, no matter how smoothly you ride, your body is always slowly draining that anaerobic battery. Even with a 1w anaerobic contribution, that battery will be mostly gone after 5hrs on the bike.
We've seen that in lots of performances we've observed. Strong training. Strong race rehearsals. Good nutrition. Get off the bike at a race and everything is fine for about an hour. From that point onwards, running at a slow/steady pace is possible, but the slightest incline breaks us. Whereas in training, we were able to carry the pace up the hills and recover, on race day it just wasn't possible after about an hour.
Having a higher FRC should leave us with that ability to not be so flat off of a well planned/ridden bike leg. This was a big part of the thinking for @Coach Patrick at Kona last year. We looked at races where he had felt good running off of the bike (Cabo 2017) vs races where he struggled more on the run (Kona 2017) and saw that he had depleted significantly more FRC on those rides.
If you think of your aerobic as an engine, it is helpful to think of FRC as a battery. It is a battery that is always being used (bike/run) at different rates. The rate that FRC is burned is related to how we have trained to burn it and how hard we push, but it is always burned.
Build a bigger battery so that you burn what you have more efficiently and so that you have more left for the run.
Great explanation @Rich Stanbaugh Thanks for starting this thread @tim cronk
This is another post that makes being a part of this team so valuable.
I've been watching @Rich Stanbaugh and @Coach Patrick and seeing results, but I had no idea you were involved in the mad scientist project @tim cronk !
I love that I have seen athletes who were stuck at the same (very high) level for a couple of years now see new highs following this approach!
Thanks so much for sharing, and thank you to everyone that has commented in here and asked great questions! This is great stuff!